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Chaser 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 18 2018
Location: Nottingham
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Points: 1202
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 Posted: December 23 2018 at 13:39 |
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From what I understand the Afghan government is only really in control in Kabul and a couple of other cities.
Most of the rest of the country is effectively in Taliban control.
It looks like a case of mission failed.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
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Points: 2720
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Posted: December 23 2018 at 14:09 |
I don’t think it’s about fighting ISIS or the Taliban at all. I don’t think it ever was. That’s just a side show and a smoke screen. It started off as a fight for the control of oil from the middle east, and it’s now escalated into trying to stop the Russians getting a foothold there via Syria/Afghanistan, Europe via Turkey, and the USA via Donald Trump.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20617
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 03:32 |
 Chaser wrote:
From what I understand the Afghan government is only really in control in Kabul and a couple of other cities.
Most of the rest of the country is effectively in Taliban control.
It looks like a case of mission failed. |
You're correct. There's no way that the Taliban can ever be eradicated from the mountainous regions of that country.
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Chaser
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 18 2018
Location: Nottingham
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Points: 1202
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 03:59 |
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I think the idea that Trump is some kind of "agent of Putin" is pushing the argument too far.
Yes, it's clear that Putin wanted Trump to win the election, and it's clear that Russia has been using psychological warfare techniques to attempt to influence western elections for some time.
Putin backs Trump because he's a fellow nationalist.
The difference is that Trump is isolationist whereas Putin is expansionist.
Putin is smarter than Trump (not difficult) and will take full advantage of America's withdrawal into isolationism to expand Russian influence and even Russian territory.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 04:09 |
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^ That Trump continually buckles in all and every situation regarding Putin is too close for comfort. His numerous aides and confidants that have ties to Putin is beyond coincidence. The only thing that I find that may be pushing it is actually finding a smoking gun tying Trump to Putin. Trump's most likely into Putin for big money having thought that he never stood a chance of being elected president when he "borrowed" it. It happened and now he has Russian skeletons in his closet. The only thing that remains is to see if the light in this closet works.
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Chaser
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 18 2018
Location: Nottingham
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Points: 1202
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 05:31 |
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Well you may be right and perhaps the "smoking gun" will be revealed and prove it.
I was in Russia a couple of years ago and I have to say that I have never been to a country where the people are so paranoid.
The narrative I got from ordinary Russians everywhere was that the west is out to get Russia and they need a strong leader to protect them from western aggression against them.
I don't think most people in the west understand how focussed Russia is on us as their enemy and on seeing everything the west does as part of a plot against Russia.
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011
Location: Texas
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Points: 6725
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 06:34 |
In the Art of War- Sun Tzu writes about the impossibility of winning a war if the invading country refuses to occupy and live in the enemy's territory. America cannot win in Afghanistan or Syria because Americans won't move and live the Middle East. It's a waste of life, property, time, money, and public relations..
In the end, Islamists will win. Without a shot fired, the Middle East immigrants are quickly gaining power and a foothold in Europe because they are willing to move to, occupy, and live in another country while exporting their culture. It is what it is...
Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 24 2018 at 06:37
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Chaser
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 18 2018
Location: Nottingham
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Points: 1202
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 08:23 |
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In the end it's the advantage that dictatorships and religious fanatics will always have over democracies.
Democracies are at the whim of fickle public opinion.
It was obvious from the start that the only way to win in Afghanistan was to commit to staying there for 40 to 50 years.
But within a few years the public were already shouting to "bring our boys home"
The Taliban knew that all they had to do was bide their time and they would win
They were right.
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011
Location: Texas
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 11:52 |
Throughout the American -Syria conflict, the Americans have backed the Kurds. This in turn alienates Turkey and so Turkey has been progressively leaned towards supporting Putin and Russia. In my opinion, America-Turkey relations are more important than dethroning Assad in Syria! By leaving Syria, America keeps Turkey from going full-on Russian ally. America will greatly improve relationships with Turkey by leaving Syria and the Kurds.
What's more important? America-Kurd relationship or America/Turkey?
Peace not War! Bring the troops home!
Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 24 2018 at 11:58
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Chaser
Forum Senior Member
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 12:00 |
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The Kurds were useful to the US in fighting IS in Syria.
Everyone knows they'll be dropped like a hot potato once the job is done (is that happening now?)
Assad is a brutal and deeply unpleasant dictator, but he's not a threat to the west in the way IS is.
If the choice is between Assad or IS then I'll take Assad.
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011
Location: Texas
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 15:46 |
Chaser wrote:
The Kurds were useful to the US in fighting IS in Syria.
Everyone knows they'll be dropped like a hot potato once the job is done (is that happening now?)
Assad is a brutal and deeply unpleasant dictator, but he's not a threat to the west in the way IS is.
If the choice is between Assad or IS then I'll take Assad. |
I see your argument. However I don't think the choice is between Assad and ISIS. It's more complicated than Assad/ISIS. For example Assad reminds me of Gaddafi. Gaddafi was an unpleasant dictator in Libya. Obama turned Gaddafi into an ex-dictator, dead man, and historical footnote. However Libya was stable under Gaddafi. Now slaves are sold at auction in Libya, while murder and rape run rampant. Meanwhile Libyans flee for Europe. Assad may be unpleasant but Syria is more stable with Assad than what would replace him. Syria would become the next United States disaster.
1. Better to leave now and salvage relations with Turkey 2. Stop American soldier deaths and injuries. 3. Stop the outrageous flow of tax payer dollars into Syria. 4. Create a favorable environment so that Turkey won't become a huge Russian Ally. 5. Good PR for USA. Instead of perpetually angering Middle East people into becoming terrorists because the USA keeps killing their families. 6. Stem the flow of Refugees by not bombing their homes and families into smithereens.
Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 24 2018 at 15:52
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twseel
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 16:43 |
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Turkey is itself a big Islamic dictatorship at this point, with an economy probably comparable in size to that of Russia, I'm pretty sure this is not a choice between having them be an innocent trade partner or having them be a Russian puppet, they'll do their own destructive, backwards sh*t regardless. The Kurds deserve your support here from whatever side you look at it.
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 17:19 |
twseel wrote:
Turkey is itself a big Islamic dictatorship at this point, with an economy probably comparable in size to that of Russia, I'm pretty sure this is not a choice between having them be an innocent trade partner or having them be a Russian puppet, they'll do their own destructive, backwards sh*t regardless. The Kurds deserve your support here from whatever side you look at it. |
We'll agree to disagree. I don't want American soldiers to die. I don't want my tax dollars to fund Syrian occupation. I don't want Syria to turn into a Libyan situation. America needs to stop policing the world.
By the way, I'm not a fan of Erdogan. He is a dictator and rigged an election to vote himself lifetime rule. I'm for letting the Middle East rule the Middle East. As far as the Kurds deserving America's support. I believe that humans are not immune from Darwinian Evolution and Natural Selection. If you look at it through the lens of evolution...Nobody deserves anything. Whoever is the most adaptive deserves to survive, flourish, and replicate. I don't want to hurt anyone. I believe charity begins at home and Darwin agrees with me. That said, if the Kurds can convince America to take care of them, then bully for them. They've just manipulated other humans to help them survive and replicate. That's evolutionary too. 
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 18:05 |
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^ Generally I would be for the US out of the Middle East but stepping outside of that situation for a moment, to say that those who want to help others are only being manipulated is very cynical.
It may be a surprise to those that are that cynical, but there are still plenty of people in this world who help others because they find doing such things to be an enjoyable and meaningful experience.
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011
Location: Texas
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 19:32 |
Easy Money wrote:
^ Generally I would be for the US out of the Middle East but stepping outside of that situation for a moment, to say that those who want to help others are only being manipulated is very cynical.
It may be a surprise to those that are that cynical, but there are still plenty of people in this world who help others because they find doing such things to be an enjoyable and meaningful experience. |
Cynical is what Idealists call realists. I didn't say, "Those who want to help others are only being manipulated." You misquoted me again Easy Money.
However, I agree with you. Many people enjoy helping others. I find it to be extremely rewarding to help sick and injured folks. That being said, science reveals reality. And the reality is...Selfish genes outnumber altruistic genes. That's a fact. Easy Money- Do you believe that scientific method reveals reality?
Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 24 2018 at 19:41
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
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Joined: August 11 2007
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 20:26 |
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edited
Edited by Easy Money - December 24 2018 at 20:30
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
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Points: 10672
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 20:29 |
omphaloskepsis wrote:
That being said, science reveals reality. And the reality is...Selfish genes outnumber altruistic genes. That's a fact.
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You're either confusing your opinion with facts or you should reveal the scientific study that is the basis for this 'fact'.
Edited by Easy Money - December 24 2018 at 21:03
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 24 2018 at 21:29 |
SteveG wrote:
^ That Trump continually buckles in all and every situation regarding Putin is too close for comfort. His numerous aides and confidants that have ties to Putin is beyond coincidence. The only thing that I find that may be pushing it is actually finding a smoking gun tying Trump to Putin. Trump's most likely into Putin for big money having thought that he never stood a chance of being elected president when he "borrowed" it. It happened and now he has Russian skeletons in his closet. The only thing that remains is to see if the light in this closet works. |
Pretty much this. 'Genius' Trump bailed himself out of trouble by surrendering to Russians who were the only ones who would help him out of his mess in the 80s. Now they are using that leverage to the hilt. And remember that Trump talked about running for the Presidency for the first time in the late 80s. So my guess is they have been needling him for a long time to extract their pound of flesh. Maybe the project lost steam in the 90s when America installed its own puppet in Russia (Yelstin). But with Putin consolidating power and sensing the opportunity post 2008 to revive the Russian state politically and militarily, he must have nudged (with gun to head if required) Trump into politics again.
But this should also give pause to mainstream media as to how they missed the underlying signs so badly in 2016. If Russia sensed there was an undercurrent of discontent that could be blown up into something as outlandish as a Trump presidency, why did the mainstream think it was such a laughable idea? I mean what is laughable logically and what is workable politically are two different things.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: December 25 2018 at 01:10 |
If you wait for a right time to pull out of this region particularly, it's never going to happen, because someone is always going to be left in the lurch. It's endless.
I don't like it, true, but it's a question of leaving the region to regulate itself and then build on that, or stay and wait until someone says: "Ok, hold still, just this one last bomb and we're done. And no backsies."
As for the Russians in the region: it's happening anyway, regardless of US presence.
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twseel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 15 2012
Location: abroad
Status: Offline
Points: 22767
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Posted: December 25 2018 at 04:17 |
omphaloskepsis wrote:
twseel wrote:
Turkey is itself a big Islamic dictatorship at this point, with an economy probably comparable in size to that of Russia, I'm pretty sure this is not a choice between having them be an innocent trade partner or having them be a Russian puppet, they'll do their own destructive, backwards sh*t regardless. The Kurds deserve your support here from whatever side you look at it. |
We'll agree to disagree. I don't want American soldiers to die. I don't want my tax dollars to fund Syrian occupation. I don't want Syria to turn into a Libyan situation. America needs to stop policing the world.
By the way, I'm not a fan of Erdogan. He is a dictator and rigged an election to vote himself lifetime rule. I'm for letting the Middle East rule the Middle East. As far as the Kurds deserving America's support. I believe that humans are not immune from Darwinian Evolution and Natural Selection. If you look at it through the lens of evolution...Nobody deserves anything. Whoever is the most adaptive deserves to survive, flourish, and replicate. I don't want to hurt anyone. I believe charity begins at home and Darwin agrees with me. That said, if the Kurds can convince America to take care of them, then bully for them. They've just manipulated other humans to help them survive and replicate. That's evolutionary too. |
This far away from what I was addressing, of course the US should stop replacing governments in the Middle East and meddling with their systems of government. They (the US gov't) shouldn't stop Erdogan from being president but they also don't need to get him on their side by not supporting a systematically oppressed minority group who they already have on their side. Yes there are risks and America has had some blunders in he past but if they make sure to be a bit more tactical, they can help so many people there. No need for blabbing some bollocks about Darwinism, there's no one species on the verge of fricking extinction here, it's a diplomatic, political issue first and foremost.
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The American Politics Thread
