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Dean 
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
 Posted: December 12 2008 at 21:19 |
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The problem with metaphors and analogies is they only work at one level - the level they are specified at. You cannot equate a Rock or Metal family tree with a Genealogical family tree beyond what is shown - there are no brothers, sisters, aunts or uncles of music - only parents, and each music subgenre can have one, two, three or more parents because they are not biological and are not limited by such things. Once a subgenre is created it continues to develop and progress by pulling in influences from other subgenres - Prog did not arrive fully-formed and neither did Prog Metal.
They have a common ancestor - no argument there - but they developed independently from each other with different parents of different generations - in the genealogical analogy, Metalcore's parents are the grandchildren of Prog Metal's uncle. Metalcore has as much in common with Prog Metal as Prog does with Punk in that the "distance" between them musically is just as great.
::shrug:: continuing the genealogical analogy - if you draw-up your family tree do you show the grand-parents of your father's brother's wife? No - because they are not your direct ancestors, that is what this tree is doing - it's a standard method and is as precise as it needs to be - if they showed all connections and roots it would include skiffle, dixieland jazz, gospel and the plethora of other popular music forms that preceded including all the Eastern and Western Classical music genres and would be too complicated to understand or follow. Doing that defeats the sole purpose of an analogy - which is to illustrate through simplification.
As I said, analogies only work at the level they are stated - you cannot stretch an analogy further than that, especially if you want to show the secondary and tertiary connections between all the music genres- such connections do not exist in biology. If the analogy fails, then it is the fault of the analogy, not of the principles it's being used to illustrate.
I seldom get angry and will happily lose an argument if I'm wrong
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: December 12 2008 at 21:48 |
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Modern everything is a passing "fad", isn't it ? And that's without getting into "the real Prog' debate ... |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: December 12 2008 at 21:53 |
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You know what, many music fans only find out later what the specific musical sub-genre a musical is. The metalheads include people who get into bands because they like what they hear. If later on, someone tells them " Hey Prog Archives says that they're a Prog Metal / Extreme/Tech Metal band", I don't think that will change much In the 70s, Rush was often lumped in with metal groups, and even with the hard rockers like Kiss, Aerosmith, and even toured with Foghat on a co-headlining trek. I don't know of anyone amongst my friends who got turned off Rush when some media critics or Rock Journalists called them "prog". The music hadn't changed. The description used by some did. Indeed, Rush were even called Progressive Metal. Yet PA lists then as Heavy Prog. And my friends still like them and have not made any comment as to the changing "title" used to call the music whatever it is. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: December 12 2008 at 21:55 |
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Hey, that's my Thread !!! |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: December 12 2008 at 22:10 |
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 12 2008 at 22:21 |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: December 12 2008 at 22:15 |
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Depends on how much you know of the scene. There always an underground that's just bubbling under and melding influences. Mathcore and all the other technical metal / punk mashups may have been around for a bit. But they are just starting to settle into more identifiable styles. The same as the 70s Symphonic bands came to set down some examples and standards for their genre. Metal itself, is not a fad. If it is, then it's one of the longest lasting ones, as it's been used as a descriptor since the late 60s, seems to go away for a bit, come back with some new touches, gets passed over by the next big thing, only to come back and build upon the previous bands & albums. So - Cream (in cranking the volume, and using simple blues based riffs), Steppenwolf and a few others can be seen as proto metal. Then the original first wave of Purple, Sabbath, Zep, with the next tier of Uriah Heep, Status Quo, Hawkwind (yes, there are some who claim them as HM), Budgie. After that , the hard rock scene - UFO, Scorpions, Kiss, Judas Priest, BTO, Foghat, Rush,Van Halen and many others. No forgetting the NWOBHM, with Maiden, Def Lep, Saxon, Motorhead. AC/DC broke big internationally to blast this bunch and the whole HM thing into the majors for a few years. The Americans got into the act by mid 80s, with the big four trashers - Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Slayer. The L.A. scene was a concurrent happening with GnR, Motley Crue. Then at the end of the decade, came a harder edged sound from Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Annihilator, Sepultura, Napalm Death. Grunge and Alternative music was big for the early 90s, but the heavier bands in that genre were just a part of a big surge of heavy metal bands _ the beginnings of the Florida Death metal scene being one part of it. Korn got the Nu Metal going, with all its' attendant seven string fury. And in the last decade, as with all previous "generations" newer bands like Soulfly, Artoropus (mispelt ?), Cynic, Mars Volta, Opeth, Meshuggah, and many other are ust adding to this genre called metal, which can really be broken down into more sub-genres and sub-sub-genres than PA would even dare have nightmares over , classification wise. So, metal as a fad is as true as Prog as a fad, as Punk as a fad, as country as a fad; basically as true as with any other genre that has managed to find new fans and keep old ones beyond the short period that changing fads do. So can metal be prog ? Some metal is prog, some is not. Most metal fans don't care about the sub-genring of the music they like. They just want to hear more. I.E. - check out the Wacken festival lien-ups, the Headbanger's journey documentaries (both), the old Reading festivals. Variety was there, as were the fans. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: December 24 2007 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 25210 |
Posted: December 12 2008 at 22:20 |
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Umm Ivan, I'm very much willing to call your knowledge of metalcore in general in question.
I'm assuming you don't really know any of the bands of the genre, nor listen to it, but you're quick to make assumptions about something you don't know a busting lot about. Wikipedia might tell it's also known as 'progressive metalcore' but here at PA on the Prog Metal Team and many other sources, we don't believe that to be the case. Neither Botch or Converge (as listed above) have even been bothered to be considered for prog metal, despite being well known bands. Why? Because they are mathcore bands, not PROGRESSIVE mathcore in the case of The Dillinger Escape Plan. Botch and Converge are very technical bands, correct, but neither are progressive at all. Just as mathcore isn't necessarily progressive, extreme metal isn't necessarily progressive. Both are technical music genres, but they are not guaranteed to be progressive. This part of the area of expertise I deal with as part of the Progressive Metal Team when considering bands for Tech/Extreme Prog Metal, and believe me, I've done my research and my listening on a much broader level than merely reading through a wikipedia page. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: December 12 2008 at 22:30 |
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You don't need to call my knowledge, I know almost nothing of Math and i said it inh my first reply to you.
So, becauswe you disagree and the Metal team does, does it make it true?
Why can't you be wrong and they right, why can't the other 1'000,000 of links that talk about Propgressive Metalcore be righht?
Please hugues, don't try to make a reduction so simple, nobody said they are identical or that Math means exactly Prog Metal, I said THEY ARE RELATED
You say that one is not necesarilly the other, I don't understand so far but i guess it's true,
As a fact I believe it's like saying Not all Folk bands are necesarilly Prog Folk bands (Which is a universal truth)
But if anybody said that there's no link between Progressive Rock, Progressive Folk and Folk, I would honestly doubt it.
I know your knowledge about Metal and Math is much wider than mine, but seems that not only Wikipedia, but a million links say that there is a PROGRESSIVE METALCORE, and if that exists and despite all your technical terms, you can't deny that there's a relation between both. Nobody can tell me that there's no relation between PROGRESSIVE METALcore and PROGRESSIVE METAL.
And at least I proved there are some experts that disagree with you.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 12 2008 at 22:39 |
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 25210 |
Posted: December 12 2008 at 22:37 |
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Of course there is a link between Progressive Metalcore and Progressive Metal, we have progressive metalcore/mathcore bands in Tech/Extreme Prog Metal in our database.
But before you tried to say there is a link between metalcore and progressive metal, but metalcore per se is a totally different beast to progressive metal and are not directly linked, that's what me and Dean have been trying to explain to you Ivan. And don't put words into my mouth like you did before, I never said Technical Metalcore was the same as Progressive Metalcore. Nowhere did I say that or even imply that. Technical Metalcore does not equal progressive. Technical Progressive Metalcore does in fact equal progressive. If I didn't understand the difference, I doubt I would have even got promoted to the Prog Metal Team at all. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: December 12 2008 at 23:06 |
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Thanks.
Please Hughes, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT MATH, I quoted you...You the expert were the one that said that the name was wrong and I believed you because I said (and I almost quote me) "I know very little and care less about Math", you said that it was really Technical Metalcore and used many terms (that keep growing with new adjective in each new post). But I quoted a place where Math is called Progressive Metalcore. BTW: Between the Buried and Me (A band I don't know about) is catalogued as Metalcore in other sites and we have them as Tech Extreme Metal...Do you insist there's no connection? But to make it simpler that, and will explain you step by step:
In that case despite anything you say, there's a relation between Metalcore and Progressive Metal, call it direct or indirect (I never said direct, my knowledge doesn't go that far), but you can't deny the relation and the link between the two.
No Hughes, you never said that, I had to find it in another source.
And its' funny how each step you add new names, now you call it Progressive Technical Metalcore....WOW!!!!!! What will be next?
I don't doubt you know the difference, I'm not saying they are exactly the same, but seems the difference is so subtle that even our own Prog Reviewers have problems. And I say that because Prog Reviewers in our one site, call "Between The Buried and Me" PURE Metalcore http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=16337 , and you call it Extreme Tech Metal....Aren't there enough similarities if some Prog reviewers catalogue a Tech Extreme Metal Band as Metalcore, even if they are wrong? Iván PS: To make it clear, i don't pretend to know more than you, as a fact I know almost nothing about 90% of the adjectives you add, but using logic and a short research, you find that there's a connection Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 12 2008 at 23:27 |
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Mr. Chill
Forum Newbie 
Joined: December 05 2007 Status: Offline Points: 3 |
Posted: December 12 2008 at 23:36 |
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A lot of this depends on your definition of prog. No, most prog metal sounds little to nothing like the 70s stuff, even during the softer keyboard/acoustic parts. However, the elements of prog (odd meters, complex solos, long songs, concept albums, etc.) are all there. By saying all prog has to sound like Yes, Genesis etc., I think you're making a huge mistake. About the jazz/classical influences, they are often there (at least the classical ones), although they might just not be as much as the forefront of the music, since guitars tend to dominate prog metal.
Personally, I have no problem calling bands like Dream Theater, which have full time keyboardists and softer passages to go along with the heavy moments, prog. For me, prog is about balancing these soft/heavy elements. It's only when bands are all heavy, and are considered/call themselves progressive because thyey have "long songs" or "odd time signatures" that I start to get annoyed. If the music is progressive, then taking away some of those "prog" elements shouldn't make it unprog, just as taking metal and adding "a few progressive elements" won't make it prog. For me, it comes down to the dominant influence. SOmething like Dream Theater is prog with metal influences. Something like Meshuggah is metal with some prog influences. I think understanding this is important to determining a band's "progressiveness" (although note I think genres a horrible in the first place because they do nothing more than pidgenhole bands). |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: December 12 2008 at 23:49 |
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Now, all my posts had a purpose and i believe I made my point (Of course it started as fun, but when i found each post added a couple new and more pompous terms, it was a chance I couldn't miss). This is INSANE, there must be only one Prog Metal IMHO, and we can't follow all this madness, in this thread we have used terms as:
Most of which I proudly say i didn't heard before, so I had to research Where will this stop?
Is all this multiple tagging helping people who want to learn something or scaring newbies?
We have reach a point when we need a full collection of texts to understand what the f**k is going on, to the point that three Prog Reviewers say that a band that is catalogued as Tech Extreme Metal is really Metalcore while an expert says both terns have no direct connection.
 I don't know or care who is right, wrong or if both are right or wrong.
I know what i like, I listen V... by Symphony X, i know it's Prog Metal and I loved the album, whatever terms are added are unnecessary, Prog Metal, great album and 4 stars are the only terms I need.
Hughes questions my knowledge about the issue....Of course and I'm happy to ignore most of them because i believe is overtagging, you need a master degree in Metal and a PHD in Hardcore to understand all this, the common visitor is lost.
I'm not saying Prog Metal shouldn't exist as some people here, because that is an aberration, but do we need three prog Metal genres or 100 terms that only graduates from the Metalum University understand?
 Isn't this site mainly a guide to the visitor and people who want to learn about prog?
Lets make it simpler guys.
Iván
EDIT: Mr Chill a newbie who seems to know more than me about Metal has said it in a few words:
Do we need more? Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 13 2008 at 00:48 |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: December 13 2008 at 00:16 |
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I'm so lost....
let me just say that the "metal" trees that I've seen are quite decent in a way but they simplify things too much.
i also think that the "metalcore" discussion between Ivan and Harry has been extremely... unnecesary...
 ... There's definitely a link between any metal sub-genre and that link is, obviously, metal!!!! Yes, Progressive Black Metal (one of the few extreme genres I love) has not much in common with Metalcore as a father-son relationship, but both share the same DNA. We could reduce things to the absurd saying that all of our music comes from rock but that's taking things far too far. Metalcore, not my favorite genre, but a genre I sadly know better than I should ( I have MANY albums...damn you PA and my cd-buying addiction ) can be just "pure" metalcore, progressive metalcore, technical metalcore, whatever metalcore. In its essence, whatever it is that makes it progressive, when it is progressive, has a lot in common with what makes progressive metal progressive. I'm not talking really about purely musical elements. It's in the approach where I usually find "progressiveness" in metalcore. And also in the use of influences that are not usual for metal. Which, in different ways, it's the same for progressive metal, only the musical basis is completely different. That sound very confusing... it reminds me of a certain member....
Also, I think that Ivan is wrong in thinking that all metal subgenres should be under one single umbrella. There are big enough differences to make the split necessary and intelligent. Especially because the right sub-genres have been chosen. All have a common link, the METAL link. I could hardly agree with a website where Symphony X and BTBAM would be classified as the same thing....
And, to end my useless post, do we really have to call metal fans "metalheads" First, it sounds like "crackhead" but with metal, senseless people that follow something like a drug. And, two, it kind of makes us look like narrow people. I have 900 rock albums and, yes, while probably 50% are metal-related, the other 50% isn't. And i have 200 extra cds of complete different music. And my case, I'm sure, is hardly unique. So if all of you insist, I will call avant-fans "avantgardeheads" (sorry to our member who has that name...nothing against you), I will call neo-prog fans "neoheads" and RIo fans "rioheads" and so on.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65255 |
Posted: December 13 2008 at 00:20 |
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how about headbangers? It was a badge of honor when I was a teenager
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: December 13 2008 at 00:22 |
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T I call myself a Proghead and have no problem. Iván
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: December 13 2008 at 00:27 |
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Ok from now on all of you then are "progbangers"... whatever the hell that means...
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topofsm
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: August 17 2008 Location: Arizona, USA Status: Offline Points: 1698 |
Posted: December 13 2008 at 00:35 |
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It means we bang proggers.
Oh wait, should the auto censor have gotten that? Maybe it should say we fluffy proggers.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: December 13 2008 at 00:52 |
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While not a proghead strictly, I bang someone who likes DT!!
 That sounded so class-less.... But I had to say it...
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topofsm
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 17 2008 Location: Arizona, USA Status: Offline Points: 1698 |
Posted: December 13 2008 at 01:15 |
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Dang, I wish I knew a woman who knew DT. It's hard in these parts to find a male who even knows who DT is.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: December 13 2008 at 01:18 |
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Oh she didn't knew DT when I met her... But she liked rock and some metal, so turning her to the dark side was relatively easy...
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How can metal be prog?
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Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
