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Lindsay Lohan 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 3254
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 Posted: February 16 2006 at 07:38 |
 chopper wrote:
RoyalJelly wrote:
For those in need of a history brush-up concerning all things prog:
1st concept album: Beatles (Sgt. Peppers - or Zappa's Freak Out, perhaps)
1st pop/rock song in 7/8: Beatles (All You Need is Love)
1st pop-rock song with electronic effects & tape loops: Beatles (Tomorow
Never Knows)
1st pop/rock/Indian song with sitar & Tablas, in 5/8: Beatles (Within You
Without You)
Ist pop/rock song with Mellotron: Beatles (Strawberry Fields Forever)
1st pop/rock album with Synthesizer: Beatles (Abbey Road)
1st pop/rock song with classical string quartet: Beatles (Elanor Rigby)
Any questions? (Actually, if all the people threatening to abandon the site
over this would actually do so, it would only improve the quality.)
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Strictly speaking, Sgt Pepper is not a concept album. Only the first 2 tracks fit the original vision of an album by an "alternate" band, after that (as Lennon admitted) they couldn't be bothered with it and it became an just album of songs (even with the Sgt Pepper reprise on side 2).
Love You To is the first Beatles song with tabla and sitar (although Norwegian Wood featured sitar before that).
Only the instrumental break of Within You Without You is in 5/8.
Yesterday predates Eleanor Rigby as a song with a string quartet (although it has guitar as well).
You could also have had -
1st pop song with feedback (and dog noises) - I Feel Fine
1st pop song with backwards vocals - Rain
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Ah we can go on like this forever can't we 
Anyone know what was the first pop song that features a car crash in the beginning 
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akin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 976
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 07:43 |
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
akin wrote:
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
akin wrote:
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
akin wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Lindsay
Lohan wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ which Rolling Stones album would that be? |
Their satanic majesties request
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I don't know that one - but I've never heard a prog artist cover a
Rolling Stones song, or name the Rolling Stones as a major
influence.
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Of course, Their Satanic Majesties Request was a
trial of doing something like Sgt. Peppers and the other psychedelic
acts of that time. The difference between Beatles and The Rolling
Stones is that Beatles really moved their sound towards a classical and
jazz influenced direction (White Album, Abbey Road) while Rolling
Stones made Satanic Majesties to follow the psychedelic trend and
abandoned the idea soon (Beggar's Banquet and Let it Bleed has few of
psychedelic/experimental on them).
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Im just pointing out that the beatles was far from being the ONLY
band that where trying to be experimental besides their jazz and
classical influences are almost non-exsistent and forexample such
artists like Procul Harum and Moody Blues show alot more clear
influence from Classical and jazz music mixed with pop-rock.
Besides what is generally called the first prog album "Court of the
crimson king" does not show any influence of The beatles music.
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A great prejudice to say In the Court of the Crimson
King is the first progressive album. The Nice, Procol Harum and The
Moody Blues were doing progressive rock before King Crimson was formed.
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Aha but neither of the bands show some influence from the beatles!
(And neither of them is listed as prog rock) And im not
saying that is has to be 20 minutes long to be progressive but i dont
hear the classical compostional style like you find in forexample
Gentle Giant that usually never write long songs. I have only heard
them use symphonic arrangements on standard pop songs.
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My greatest complain in this site is that Moody Blues, The Nice and Procol Harum are not considered as progressive rock.
About Gentle Giant, which band used this kind of compositional style?
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Again Gentle giant presents alot of musical themes in a frentic pace
and uses scales and themes that is very often used in classical music.
The band that i have heard (Sometimes) that gets the closest to gentle
giant is perhaps Spocks beard. |
I don't know much Spocks Beard (Just the first album and Feel Euphoria). Which albuns get close to Gentle Giant?
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Lindsay Lohan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 3254
|
Posted: February 16 2006 at 07:45 |
akin wrote:
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
akin wrote:
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
akin wrote:
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
akin wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ which Rolling Stones album would that be? |
Their satanic majesties request
|
I don't know that one - but I've never heard a prog artist cover a Rolling Stones song, or name the Rolling Stones as a major influence.
|
Of course, Their Satanic Majesties Request was a trial of doing something like Sgt. Peppers and the other psychedelic acts of that time. The difference between Beatles and The Rolling Stones is that Beatles really moved their sound towards a classical and jazz influenced direction (White Album, Abbey Road) while Rolling Stones made Satanic Majesties to follow the psychedelic trend and abandoned the idea soon (Beggar's Banquet and Let it Bleed has few of psychedelic/experimental on them).
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Im just pointing out that the beatles was far from being the ONLY band that where trying to be experimental besides their jazz and classical influences are almost non-exsistent and forexample such artists like Procul Harum and Moody Blues show alot more clear influence from Classical and jazz music mixed with pop-rock.
Besides what is generally called the first prog album "Court of the crimson king" does not show any influence of The beatles music.
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A great prejudice to say In the Court of the Crimson King is the first progressive album. The Nice, Procol Harum and The Moody Blues were doing progressive rock before King Crimson was formed.
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Aha but neither of the bands show some influence from the beatles! (And neither of them is listed as prog rock) And im not saying that is has to be 20 minutes long to be progressive but i dont hear the classical compostional style like you find in forexample Gentle Giant that usually never write long songs. I have only heard them use symphonic arrangements on standard pop songs.
|
My greatest complain in this site is that Moody Blues, The Nice and Procol Harum are not considered as progressive rock.
About Gentle Giant, which band used this kind of compositional style?
|
Again Gentle giant presents alot of musical themes in a frentic pace and uses scales and themes that is very often used in classical music. The band that i have heard (Sometimes) that gets the closest to gentle giant is perhaps Spocks beard.
|
I don't know much Spocks Beard (Just the first album and Feel Euphoria). Which albuns get close to Gentle Giant?
|
Thought's part two on the V album is a typical short song with changes musical themes in a frentic pace. Its really great 
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 07:45 |
The Beatles had a clear influence on the experimentle, progressive tendancies of the early prog bands. Its possible to say that without albums like Sgt Peppers, Pink Floyd and others would never have bothered becomeing prog bands as they would have thought that there was no interest in doing something different and experimentle. This is the Beatlesl major influence.
As for Prot-prog, i think that the whole point of the genre is to show who had a direct influence on the experimentle and progressive nature of prog bands, even if the proto bands arnt exactly prog. Its a historical genre, it shoes what came before and what made prog possible.
@ akin, what makes you think that all songs of over 15 minutes are just smaller songs linked together.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Lindsay Lohan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 3254
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 07:50 |
^
There where more experimental releases in 67 and besides bands like King Crimson and such show no influence from the beatles what so ever.
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Lindsay Lohan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 3254
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 07:53 |
Besides i think the main influence for the early 60's psychedelic bands where LSD rather than anything else
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RoyalJelly
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 29 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 582
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 07:54 |
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
chopper wrote:
RoyalJelly wrote:
For those in need of a history brush-up
concerning all things prog: 1st concept album: Beatles (Sgt.
Peppers - or Zappa's Freak Out, perhaps) 1st pop/rock song in
7/8: Beatles (All You Need is Love) 1st pop-rock song with
electronic effects & tape loops: Beatles (Tomorow Never
Knows) 1st pop/rock/Indian song with sitar & Tablas, in 5/8:
Beatles (Within You Without You) Ist pop/rock song with
Mellotron: Beatles (Strawberry Fields Forever) 1st pop/rock
album with Synthesizer: Beatles (Abbey Road) 1st pop/rock
song with classical string quartet: Beatles (Elanor Rigby) Any
questions? (Actually, if all the people threatening to abandon
the site over this would actually do so, it would only improve the
quality.) |
Strictly speaking, Sgt Pepper is not a concept album. Only
the first 2 tracks fit the original vision of an album by an
"alternate" band, after that (as Lennon admitted) they couldn't
be bothered with it and it became an just album of songs (even
with the Sgt Pepper reprise on side 2).
Love You To is the first Beatles song with tabla and sitar
(although Norwegian Wood featured sitar before that).
Only the instrumental break of Within You Without You is in
5/8.
Yesterday predates Eleanor Rigby as a song with a string
quartet (although it has guitar as well).
You could also have had -
1st pop song with feedback (and dog noises) - I Feel Fine
1st pop song with backwards vocals - Rain
|
Ah we can go on like this forever can't we
Anyone know what was the first pop song that features a car
crash in the beginning |
Yes indeed, we could go on and on, but it's clear that almost
all of the innovations associated with prog rock were first
brought by the Beatles...if Sgt. Pepper's isn't a through
composed concept album, it made the whole thing possible by
framing the songs within a conceptual package, since before
that albums were ONLY collections of individual songs. And the
people who claim that POP only means bad, super-commercial
music, all of prog developed out of pop music, which took on
increasingly artistic aspects and twists through the possibilities
opened by the Beatles, like it or not.
For those old enough to remember, it was because of the
Beatles that the media, intellectuals, etc., came to even discuss
the possibility that pop music could contain serious, artistic
ideas, and not just be the background on a teenage dance
floor, the reason why people like Leonard Bernstein started to
advance the notion that pop and rock could actually even be an
art form.
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 07:54 |
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
^
There where more experimental releases in 67 and besides bands like King Crimson and such show no influence from the beatles what so ever.
|
Not directly but the fact that The Beatles started experamenting and still sold showed others that it was possible to do this and be successful, this is their influence, as I've said before.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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akin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 976
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 07:56 |
sleeper wrote:
The Beatles had a clear influence on the
experimentle, progressive tendancies of the early prog bands. Its
possible to say that without albums like Sgt Peppers, Pink Floyd and
others would never have bothered becomeing prog bands as they would
have thought that there was no interest in doing something different
and experimentle. This is the Beatlesl major influence.
As for Prot-prog, i think that the whole point of the genre is to
show who had a direct influence on the experimentle and
progressive nature of prog bands, even if the proto bands arnt
exactly prog. Its a historical genre, it shoes what came before and
what made prog possible.
@ akin, what makes you think that all songs of over 15 minutes are just smaller songs linked together. |
Not all of them, but some are clearly songs written separated and then
linked together. You can't say Thick as a Brick, Close to The Edge,
Cinema Show are this way, but Rush epics certainly were made this
way. And even songs like Musical Box were written this way (I
have a recording of a 3 minute song while Ant Phillips was Genesis
guitar player and that was one part of the Musical Box).
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Lindsay Lohan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 3254
|
Posted: February 16 2006 at 07:57 |
RoyalJelly wrote:
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
chopper wrote:
RoyalJelly wrote:
For those in need of a history brush-up
concerning all things prog: 1st concept album: Beatles (Sgt.
Peppers - or Zappa's Freak Out, perhaps) 1st pop/rock song in
7/8: Beatles (All You Need is Love) 1st pop-rock song with
electronic effects & tape loops: Beatles (Tomorow Never
Knows) 1st pop/rock/Indian song with sitar & Tablas, in 5/8:
Beatles (Within You Without You) Ist pop/rock song with
Mellotron: Beatles (Strawberry Fields Forever) 1st pop/rock
album with Synthesizer: Beatles (Abbey Road) 1st pop/rock
song with classical string quartet: Beatles (Elanor Rigby) Any
questions? (Actually, if all the people threatening to abandon
the site over this would actually do so, it would only improve the
quality.) |
Strictly speaking, Sgt Pepper is not a concept album. Only
the first 2 tracks fit the original vision of an album by an
"alternate" band, after that (as Lennon admitted) they couldn't
be bothered with it and it became an just album of songs (even
with the Sgt Pepper reprise on side 2).
Love You To is the first Beatles song with tabla and sitar
(although Norwegian Wood featured sitar before that).
Only the instrumental break of Within You Without You is in
5/8.
Yesterday predates Eleanor Rigby as a song with a string
quartet (although it has guitar as well).
You could also have had -
1st pop song with feedback (and dog noises) - I Feel Fine
1st pop song with backwards vocals - Rain
|
Ah we can go on like this forever can't we
Anyone know what was the first pop song that features a car
crash in the beginning
|
Yes indeed, we could go on and on, but it's clear that almost
all of the innovations associated with prog rock were first
brought by the Beatles...if Sgt. Pepper's isn't a through
composed concept album, it made the whole thing possible by
framing the songs within a conceptual package, since before
that albums were ONLY collections of individual songs. And the
people who claim that POP only means bad, super-commercial
music, all of prog developed out of pop music, which took on
increasingly artistic aspects and twists through the possibilities
opened by the Beatles, like it or not.
For those old enough to remember, it was because of the
Beatles that the media, intellectuals, etc., came to even discuss
the possibility that pop music could contain serious, artistic
ideas, and not just be the background on a teenage dance
floor, the reason why people like Leonard Bernstein started to
advance the notion that pop and rock could actually even be an
art form. |
Sgt pepper is anything but serious!
Let's face it the beatles where defiently the most commercially sucessfull band in the 60's and although there where alot of bands that surelely where more innovative and experimental albums the beatles is the ones that are remembered because of their already big popularity established by their earlier albums.
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Lindsay Lohan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 3254
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 07:58 |
sleeper wrote:
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
^
There where more experimental releases in 67 and besides bands like King Crimson and such show no influence from the beatles what so ever.
|
Not directly but the fact that The Beatles started experamenting and still sold showed others that it was possible to do this and be successful, this is their influence, as I've said before.
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People have continued to experiment with music over atleast 2000 years...the progression would have come with or without the beatleas as ive said before.
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RoyalJelly
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 29 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 582
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 08:00 |
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Crimson had no influence of the Beatles? I don't know where you got
your ears, but it seems they're missing some very obvious musical
information. I'd say that up until Lark's Tongue, there's a lot of Beatle's
influence in Crimson, and "Happy Family" on Lizards is a parable about
them, to show the importance of this influence. The chorus of "Ladies of the
Road" is a direct reference to the harmonies and choruses of the Beatles.
They even covered "Free as a Bird" later, and Belew's music is full of such
references.
Edited by RoyalJelly
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 08:03 |
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
sleeper wrote:
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
^
There where more experimental releases in 67 and besides bands like King Crimson and such show no influence from the beatles what so ever.
|
Not directly but the fact that The Beatles started experamenting and still sold showed others that it was possible to do this and be successful, this is their influence, as I've said before.
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People have continued to experiment with music over atleast 2000 years...the progression would have come with or without the beatleas as ive said before.
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Are you sure about this, the bands themselves may have wanted to expeiment but without The Beatles succes at experimenting the record would ahve told them to stay with psychodelia, Folk/Blues etc.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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NutterAlert
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 07 2005
Location: In transition
Status: Offline
Points: 2808
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 08:46 |
Stonking thread.
I've heard a whisper that Enrico Caruso (1871-1921) may be next in line.
Caruso had a repertoire of some 500 songs, ranging from classical to traditional Italian folk songs to popular songs of the day. He was one of the first star vocalists to make numerous recordings. His recording in 1902 of Vesti la gdub was the world's first gramophone record to sell a million copies.
His stage attire puts even Rick Wakeman to shame.
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Proud to be an un-banned member since 2005
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:08 |
NutterAlert wrote:
Stonking thread.
I've heard a whisper that Enrico Caruso (1871-1921) may be next in line.
Caruso had a repertoire of some 500 songs, ranging from classical to traditional Italian folk songs to popular songs of the day. He was one of the first star vocalists to make numerous recordings. His recording in 1902 of Vesti la gdub was the world's first gramophone record to sell a million copies.
His stage attire puts even Rick Wakeman to shame.
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Nah - Guiseppi Tartini (1692-1770) first.
His "Devil's Trill" sonata is every virtuoso's wet dream, and no living violinist can play it properly because of the "devillish" triple stopped trills.
Then Nicolo Paganini (1782-1840)...
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ which Rolling Stones album would that be? |
Their satanic majesties request
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I don't know that one - but I've never heard a prog artist cover a Rolling Stones song, or name the Rolling Stones as a major influence.
|
The Rolling Stones didn't really influence Prog per se, but they were a massive influence on Rock!
"Their Satanic Majesties Request" was really a clever (and pretty good) p*** take of Sgt Pepper - although not as clever as Zappa's "We're Only In It For The Money" - and a one-off. The Stones weren't into experimenting or "art music" - and that was the major difference between the two bands. The Stones wanted to remain true to their blues roots.
Snow Dog wrote:
I see that many consider Sgt Pepper to be a concept album......it isn't. |
Er... yes it is!
The entire thing is one huge concept/package, including the rumours that surrounded it.
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
...i think the rolling stones was earlier with the usage of the sitar.
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Really?
Which song?
To the best of my knowledge, the first song the Stones used the sitar on was "Paint It Black", which is on "Aftermath" (1966).
Rubber Soul was released in 1965
Edited by Certif1ed
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:23 |
Certifiable wrote:
]
Snow Dog wrote:
| I see that many consider Sgt Pepper to be a concept album......it isn't. | | |
Er... yes it is!
The entire thing is one huge concept/package, including the rumours that surrounded it.
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We'll have to disagree on this one then.
Edited by Snow Dog
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Lota
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 08 2005
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 178
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:40 |
So sad listening and reading about this, its a shame we ve got this far with this topic.
I guess I am the biggest Beatles fan ever, but I know they might as they might not belong to this site.
But I dont want to go far, but bassically they invented the 20 min songs. For Instance Helter Skelter was supposed to be a 20 min song, but they knew it would fill the whole album, same with I want you (she's so heavy) the master records shows a 20 min jamming song but they just cut it in half (you can listen how just ends dramatically).
Being a huge prog fan I aint dissapointed from the Beatles belonging here but........ As some said before The Door, Cream, The Who just to name a few will just ruin the site.
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And In The End, The Love You Take, Is Equal To The Love You Make
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Legoman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 21 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:43 |
Chipiron wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
Legoman wrote:
(...)
Now... if you look at the term
Proto-Prog, it is obviously a term referring to beginning prog, classic
prog, pre-prog, all of that. These are the bands that made albums
that inspired prog bands like King Crimson and the like. But...
the thing is... that not all of the Beatles albums ARE prog. No doubt Sergent Pepper's is the first concept album. Everyone can agree with that. But almost none of their other albums are prog!
(...)
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There are fairly clear cases for "Abbey Road", "Revolver", "Magical
Mystery Tour" and to some extent "Rubber Soul" and "The Beatles".
That's 5 out of 12 official albums, including "Sgt
Pepper" (and one EP), making a nearly 50% clear
prog-related case.
If you look at their career in terms of years (1963-1970), then
consider that they released progressive material from around 1965
("Rubber Soul"), and the argument is even more compelling - that's 5
years out of 7, or more than 60% of the time they were creating music.
Genesis on the other hand only managed less
than 30% - their career was from 1969 - present, and they only released
Prog Rock from 1970-1980 - if you include "Duke" - which many
proggers don't. That's 10 years, out of 37. If, as many proggers do,
you discount everything after Gabriel left, then that's only 5 years - exactly the same time as the Beatles, but a far, far lower percentage of their career.
So the Beatles are at least as Prog as Genesis by that logic. 
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Well... then,why not limit the reviews and scores to the "prog"
albums of each band and just "list" the others? I know it'd be a lot of
work for PA people, but I think It might be worth it... maybe  |
But the point is that almost every band that is here had at least some
progressive intent behind every album they produced. (And don't
break out Pink Floyds Dance Songs alumb out on me...) Hahaha.
Anyway... the Beatles didn't.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21206
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:57 |
Legoman wrote:
But the point is that almost every band that is here had at least some progressive intent behind every album they produced. (And don't break out Pink Floyds Dance Songs alumb out on me...) Hahaha. Anyway... the Beatles didn't.
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No progressive intent behind the White Album? Come on.
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Greg W
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 3904
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Posted: February 16 2006 at 10:28 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Legoman wrote:
But the point is that almost every band that is here had at least some progressive intent behind every album they produced. (And don't break out Pink Floyds Dance Songs alumb out on me...) Hahaha. Anyway... the Beatles didn't.
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No progressive intent behind the White Album? Come on.
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Actually everything I have ever read was that The Beatles were getting out of the clouds and going back to the basics after the critics had basted their Magical Mystery Tour effort as a bad intent to create another Sgt Pepper. On that record they were having a great deal of difficulty getting along and each artist brought in their own seperate ideas to the mix. They were too fragmented at the time to have intents of progressiveness on that one. Hell , the term wasn't even invented. Do me a favor. Go and listen to In The Court of the Crimson King and the White Album back to back and tell me how progressive the White Album sounds then. I bet it sounds pretty simplistic.
Edited by Greg W
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The Beatles. Here. Why?
