"Freedom" thread or something

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Chester & Geoff: on the topic of the government as "us" - Power corrupts. Money corrupts. Our government has both. How can we expect an institution with these corrupting influences to represent the people accurately.  Even after your clarification, Chester, you're still saying that "a good percentage" of people are not going to act decently.  And I agree with you on that point.  If much of the general public is made up of indecent people, how much more will the US government, possibly the most powerful institution in the world which handles possibly more money than any institution in the world (I think) be subject to corruption?

We have a government that was designed with checks and balances.  You're right - power and money corrupt, and I'm not so naive to think that only wonderful things are going on in the government.  But I'm also not going to go through life being cynical and feeling miserable because of it.  And I think that our government, with its system of checks and balances, has more of a chance of being less corrupt than a corporation that doesn't have checks and balances. 

Edited by dtguitarfan - January 23 2013 at 05:44

JJLehto wrote: I will admit, I am a little angry, and disturbed, that "science" has become the religion for the more government crowd. Like how I used religion for extra trolling? I know we discussed this before but while science is beautiful and helpful, it has become a cult for many of the left, as "the rich" have become a cult for the right IMO. Thus, any disagreement makes you anti scientific, dumb, neanderthals. I was shocked that in "We" written in 1921 even back then science was used as the justification to run society...and it has been used so many times before, like for fascism and eugenics. I think government and business are very similar, and I'll be honest...between my personal experience and others, seems like managers are generally inefficient, (useless at best) and get drunk with "power" and more concerned with being a boss than actually just managing. I've had some good ones, but generally not. And many of these people ARE smart, experienced and trained. Yet look. Also, the whole chain of command hierarchy becomes such a mess. We've all done menial jobs I assume, so many times us "low people" did our jobs fine, and at best all bosses did was get in the way.  We'd figure stuff out, do it efficiently, and if a manager was right in telling us something it still was a waste by having to go through them...for what we figured out anyway. So a little irony this is what some may want done to the nation. Pretty much having it run like a business! Just its government instead

The left's worship of scientists (not science) is a continual source of irritation for me as well. It's a symptom of the progressive doctrine of experts being able to solve all our problems, whether they be experts in climate science, economics, or politics. It's good to have experts around, but they are just normal, fallible human beings like everyone else. Having a degree doesn't magically confer divine wisdom.

The Doctor wrote: As you do not actually believe those statements why would you use it as your signature, unless you think that will in some way make me look bad.  Not sure how it does, but that is the only reason I can guess for you wanting to use that as your signature.  I should rephrase that last statement though and partially answer Logan's question.  "I do not believe that a good percentage of people will act in ways that are decent...."   And yes, Logan, but I'm sorry, I've known a lot of liberals and I've known a lot of conservatives, or had dealings with a lot of both ilk.  For decency, honesty, compassion, and just all around nice behavior, I do think liberals are more likely to be such than conservatives. You, yourself, are evidence that this isn't true.  You don't believe in compassion, decency, or honesty, just force, subjugation, and sh*tting on other people's rights because they make you uncomfortable. Rob's desire to use my statements to what I can only surmise is to try to make me look bad only further proves that to me. A few of you are apparently unable to have a disagreement without resorting to being patronizing, belittling or downright insulting.  Learn to debate with mutual respect or get bent. You've been nothing if not everything you just called us.  You constantly belittle and insult the intelligence of everyone not willing to roll over and let those blessed angels in government run their lives.  What offends me most about your haughty attitude is that it comes from such a place of ignorance with no desire to ever consider your or the governments fallibility.

I don't question Docs belief in compassion, honesty and justice.

JJLehto wrote: I don't question Docs belief in compassion, honesty and justice. Do I think they are misguided? Sure, but I have no doubt he's pissed off, feels its wrong, and his belief system is the proper way to relieve such issues. I will give him kudos for making no bones about it either. He doesn't beat around the bush or spin it. Says: yeah, I dislike the wealthy, I don't have much faith in people to do whats right, and doesn't seem to want a "fix" but replacement of a bad system.   Now I wont even delve into the libertarian =/= conservative thing but needless to say "liberals are generally nicer" is silly. If you can't take disagreement with yourself then yeah that'll suck but some of my best friends are very socially conservative, religious dudes who now how I feel about such things and we all get along fine.  I will admit, some of Docs mentality is a little upsetting, seems very angry, bitter and just untrusting but I can see why. Guess I'm a fool....we're far from perfect but I think generally people are "good" (quite a complex word) and can run their lives.

Edited by The Doctor - January 23 2013 at 09:28

dtguitarfan wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Chester & Geoff: on the topic of the government as "us" - Power corrupts. Money corrupts. Our government has both. How can we expect an institution with these corrupting influences to represent the people accurately.  Even after your clarification, Chester, you're still saying that "a good percentage" of people are not going to act decently.  And I agree with you on that point.  If much of the general public is made up of indecent people, how much more will the US government, possibly the most powerful institution in the world which handles possibly more money than any institution in the world (I think) be subject to corruption? We have a government that was designed with checks and balances.  You're right - power and money corrupt, and I'm not so naive to think that only wonderful things are going on in the government.  But I'm also not going to go through life being cynical and feeling miserable because of it.  And I think that our government, with its system of checks and balances, has more of a chance of being less corrupt than a corporation that doesn't have checks and balances.    thellama73 wrote: It's very simple, Rob. He and the and the people who think like him are simply better than the rest of us. Smarter, wiser, more competent in every way. It is for us, the unwashed masses, to bow down to their superior managerial and legislative skills to tell us poor simpletons how to live, because we cannot do so for ourselves, being the stupid, violent and greedy wretches that we are. Bearing all that in mind, I see no conflict between the two statements. You know, you can mock.  But from personal experience - before I began to take a more liberal viewpoint, I was a miserable, fearful, cynical b*****d.  I hated people, I was angry all the time, and if you crossed me you'd better be sure I would try to get you back if I could get away with it.  Now, I'm not going to say this is all because of "going liberal" - on the contrary, you know I have certain beliefs, and thus would credit God with this.  But when I began to adopt a more liberal viewpoint, my attitude began to change.  It was liberalism combined with viewpoints on my own religion - rather than looking around at people and being angry at how evil they all are, I realized I'm a b*****d myself, and thus have no right to be angry at anyone.  But I also believe in grace.  And if I am to accept grace in my life, I have to extend it to others.  You can't possibly receive grace if you aren't willing to extend the same measure of it to others.  And when I began to feel the affects of grace, both from truly receiving it and from extending it to others, it began to change the way I treated people.  I rejected fear and anger and hate, and replaced them with faith and hope and love.  So laugh all you want, but becoming more liberal/progressive/whatever you want to call it is making me a happier, more generous, more grace-extending, more loving person.

which BTW...more time I spend in this beauracratic, hierarchal institution I think "do we really want THIS running our country??"  I've spent 3 hours trying to solve a problem I shouldn't even have to, going between machine techs and IT, each handing off to the other, and were given names of people I can't contact.

Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear.

Can't get over that line in DT's story, so wrong when I think about the people I know.  My story is sim to his but from a somewhat opposite perspective.  Used to be a rather foaming at the mouth leftist, angry and rebellious in my youth of my parents generation and values.  As mentioned yesterday, I've discovered that the older I get, the more I realize how wise my folks were about many things in life.   I find myself slowly on a path to being less angry and more at peace.  Service helps a lot, when I stopped bitching about others and reached out more to help those around me. 

And this is why I rather lament how personal you guys get with each other, how you quite bitterly go for each other's throats.  It's why I don't participate here much.  We're all on our own paths, finding our own answers to personal questions.  It isn't necessary to demonize each other to do that.  Although I admit when I was the age many of you here are, I was just as guilty.....I can remember how much I loathed conservatives.....ugh......I will hate no one anymore, even those I feel are wrong in their worldviews....

One other thing....since quite a few of us profess to having changed our views substantially since younger, angrier days, is it possible that it isn't a specific political stripe that caused our anger/bitterness, but perhaps other factors in  process of growing up?  That perhaps any political side is capable of stoking anger and fear in young adherents.  Surely Geoff you'd agree when watching leftists who smash windows and burn cars in various protests, that both sides are equally capable of egging on rage and cynicism.  There are plenty of examples of dysfunction everywhere.  As I've mentioned before, you're more than willing to define conservatives with quite unflattering language but seem to not see problems with your own "side."  It's not that convenient.  It never has been.  I know conservs who are amazingly nice people and I know liberals who are the most obnoxious pricks you've ever seen. Having been into the Green Party for years I know all liberals are not angels, and I saw my share of hypocrisy and anger.   Should I generalize and try to convince others that's some overall truth?   No, it's wrong to do 

I agree Geoff that it is a journey, on that much we see eye to eye  Good luck on yours guys, all of you

The Doctor wrote: manofmystery wrote: The Doctor wrote: As you do not actually believe those statements why would you use it as your signature, unless you think that will in some way make me look bad.  Not sure how it does, but that is the only reason I can guess for you wanting to use that as your signature.  I should rephrase that last statement though and partially answer Logan's question.  "I do not believe that a good percentage of people will act in ways that are decent...."   And yes, Logan, but I'm sorry, I've known a lot of liberals and I've known a lot of conservatives, or had dealings with a lot of both ilk.  For decency, honesty, compassion, and just all around nice behavior, I do think liberals are more likely to be such than conservatives. You, yourself, are evidence that this isn't true.  You don't believe in compassion, decency, or honesty, just force, subjugation, and sh*tting on other people's rights because they make you uncomfortable. Rob's desire to use my statements to what I can only surmise is to try to make me look bad only further proves that to me. A few of you are apparently unable to have a disagreement without resorting to being patronizing, belittling or downright insulting.  Learn to debate with mutual respect or get bent. You've been nothing if not everything you just called us.  You constantly belittle and insult the intelligence of everyone not willing to roll over and let those blessed angels in government run their lives.  What offends me most about your haughty attitude is that it comes from such a place of ignorance with no desire to ever consider your or the governments fallibility.    Does the pot calling the kettle black mean anything to you?  Never claimed to be above playing in the mud.  The difference between you and I is I'm not looking to subjugate anyone.  I'm more than happy to fight down in the political mud where you and, in the past, slarti and others like to fight.   You're the worst offender, MoM.  Again, at least I recognize that I have no right to run other people's lives.  "You have the right to seek leaders for yourself but you have no right to impose rulers onto others"  I have tried to have discussions with you before, but invariably it ends up with you being insulting.  This is an absolute lie.  Your idea of discussion is posting empty rhetoric backed by nothing but "when I look around here is Texas I hate everyone I see" then, when it's responded to by any of us with explainations of why your thinking is so fundamentally flawed, you ignore it and dig in further.  You can't stand anyone who disagrees with your warped, anti-government view of reality.  Fine.  I will no longer make any attempt to discuss anything with you.  I said I was done with you some time ago after a particularly disgusting argument you'd made but I let myself get sucked back in, which is my fault.  When someone who is blind to reality insults my view of it I don't find it particularly insulting, btw.

Edited by manofmystery - January 23 2013 at 10:19

Padraic wrote: I'm just sorry that people seem to be angry and bitter.  Wish nothing but happiness to everyone here, liberal and libertarian alike.

Agreed, Pat. 


DT, slight correction....I'm not "fighting" anything anymore.  Did that for a long time, had enough.  Now I'm just trying to be very concentrated on helping those in my sphere....which more or less started when my father got sick.....caring for him changed me profoundly....and after he was gone I just shifted my attention to others in the family (and friends) who need help.  Sure beats fighting.