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Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: January 07 2013 at 02:12
Surrealist wrote:
What I am talking about is a guitarist who is adding distortion, sustain, a chorus pedal, flanger, compressor, wah wah etc..
Those sounds need to be happening while they are playing so they can hear them while they are playing. If you play it clean then add the effect later.. it's going to sound very unnatural, and not good.
That's not answered my challenge - I challenged you to name one of these guitarists because every guitarist I know and have seen uses the effects between guitar and amp and then mic's up the amp to the sound board. I know of no guitarist who would DI into the soundboard and allow the producer/engineer control over his effects. All I ask is that you answer the damn question, but as you've obfusticated I'll make it more specific - name one guitarist who DI's into the soundboard and does not use foot effects peddles on stage between his guitar and backline amp.
Surrealist wrote:
I know plenty of drummers who are getting click track feeds into their headphones.. playing along with pre recorded beats and so on.. Dean, what rock have you been living under?
Prog Rock.
You are wrong - follow the link in my post. Drummers are using headphones for on-stage monitoring. Sure some may use a click, but this is not hte universal norm you are painting it as. Peddling half the story just because it makes your rant look more rational is not telling the whole story or giving the true picture.
Surrealist wrote:
My point is simple..
Prog bands are not staying together because there is no money, not enough good gigs, no major label interest, not many festivals... and a total lack of interest from today's brain dead music consumers. So one man bands are happening like scraping the bottom of a toxic music barrel.
That is incorrect on too many points. Also, calling it toxic is pretty insulting to one-man bands (and I'll excuse myself from that company of musicians since I stopped making music 7 years ago) - modern groups and one-man bands are doing something about it - they are not blaming lack of money, not enough gigs, lack of major label interest, lack of festivals, they are getting off their arses and making music by whatever means are at their disposal and they are presenting that to the consuming public with honesty and integrity, a consuming public that from our experiences on this forrum are receptive and far from brain dead.
Surrealist wrote:
I am not blaming one man bands... I'm sure most of them would rather be in a real band with serious musicians who love playing Prog.. but there is no upside to Prog now..
There is no upside for you, though there should be if you are a producer, engineer, label owner and studio mogul who could be a service to all these "serious" musicians rather than venting your splene putting them down and insulting them.
Surrealist wrote:
All the great Prog bands were live bands. They to some degree had to keep their albums honest because they were expected to reproduce those sounds live.. or.. they would have to substitute with more ambitious live playing like Zeppelin did.
and? Bands still play live today, I fail to see the point you are making. Pink Floyd reproduced the studio sound of Animals and The Wall using extra musicians, as did Mike Oldfield, who played Tubular Bells live in 1973, the musicians on stage with him included Fred Firth, Steve Hillage, Mike Ratledge, Pierre Moerlen, Tom Newman and Karl Jenkins.
Surrealist wrote:
The Louvre with be around and of interest to future generations for a lot longer than the Computer museum in San Jose. Digital art played on flat screens will have about as much longevity as a Mac Donalds french fry.
Another pointless rant that has no bearing on the discussions here. We are not talking technology and storage but music creation.
Surrealist wrote:
A persons itunes library will not have the lasting quality level of a great vinyl collection.
"Lasting quality level" doesn't even make sense and even if it did it is specious. A digital recording never degrades, it never changes, a vinyl gets progressively worse with each play and even in storage.
Surrealist wrote:
If you don't understand this.. you need to have your ears examined.
Again with the snipes. But since you raised this, have you had your ears tested recently? (if so please share the results with us so we can guage the quality of your ears) or are you still living under the misconception that as you approach 50 years on this planet you have the perfect hearing of a 19 year old and can hear tones up to 20KHz?
Joined: October 10 2010
Location: Lancaster, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1321
Posted: January 07 2013 at 04:44
Surrealist wrote:
The Louvre with be around and of interest to future generations for a lot longer than the Computer museum in San Jose. Digital art played on flat screens will have about as much longevity as a Mac Donalds french fry.
A persons itunes library will not have the lasting quality level of a great vinyl collection.
If you don't understand this.. you need to have your ears examined.
I'm guessing you're over 40 years old right? Because it's incredibly short sighted to dismiss the digital age like that. It's taking over and improving our quality of life.
I have only heard such archaic opinions from the older generation stuck in the past... In every generation there are always people dismissing current advances in favour of older tech/opinions/attitudes. I wish people like you could step back and see how you look from the outside.
The Louvre with be around and of interest to future generations for a lot longer than the Computer museum in San Jose. Digital art played on flat screens will have about as much longevity as a Mac Donalds french fry.
A persons itunes library will not have the lasting quality level of a great vinyl collection.
If you don't understand this.. you need to have your ears examined.
I'm guessing you're over 40 years old right? Because it's incredibly short sighted to dismiss the digital age like that. It's taking over and improving our quality of life.
I have only heard such archaic opinions from the older generation stuck in the past... In every generation there are always people dismissing current advances in favour of older tech/opinions/attitudes. I wish people like you could step back and see how you look from the outside.
Ridiculous, that's what.
With my elderly eyes I can see from a distance (or should I say from a height? ) that both generations can contest each other in making ridiculous statements.
This depends on the way in which the digital art is stored (USB-stick / DVD or whatever) and the equipment and software necessary to deal with its format. Needless to say that I prefer my french fries fresh.
If I think my collection of 35-year old vinyl records have a lasting sound quality which surpasses that of my digitally recorded CD's or 320 KB MP3's then I should have my ears examined.
I am also over 40 years old and definitely short sighted. Nevertheless I am glad that I know more or less how to spell what I write and I don't need a calculator for adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing; at least not for numbers with less than five digits or counting days. And I would not cheer for any digital tool taking over the quality of life. Neither is it an improvement when I am distracted from my activities because one of my social connections needs to chat with me on a smartphone. Too few people know rightly when to press the red button.
And if I added some more ridiculous statements I offer my apologies in advance...
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: January 07 2013 at 06:25
someone_else wrote:
Surrealist wrote:
Digital art played on flat screens will have about as much longevity as a Mac Donalds french fry.
Needless to say that I prefer my french fries fresh.
This will make you giggle.
Once cooked McDonalds french fries are essentially dehydrated, mos all of the water has been driven off by the heat from the oil, after that they are coated with salt that removes any remaining water. The salt and lack of natural water is why you get thirsty eating MickyD's fries. However, apart from the salt there is nothing sinister about that - we happily eat cured bacon that has been dehydrated in salt. Except think about why we dehydrate foods and what happens to them as a result of that - we do it to preserve them, curing bacon drives off the excess water and stops the pork meat from spoiling, salted fish will keep for months, preserved fruits and vegitables are made to last by replacing the water with something else - often sugars but oils work just as well. Now lets look at what happens to MickyD's french fries after a year:
You'll have to ignore the comentary because the video presenter has jumped a false conclusion - there are no preservatives in MickyD french fries - it would be a waste of money adding something to extend the shelf life of a product that doesn't need a shelf-life - a corporation like McDs does not spend money on things it doesn't need. Skip to about 1:10 to see what deep fat dehydration and salt curing does to the longevity of a MacDonalds french fry.
I thought that the latest Flower Kings CD was recorded "Live" i.e. with the band performing the music and it being recorded - I may be talking rubbish - but I read somewhere that Roine Stolt has been very wary of over-production and was attempting to get more "natural" harmonics and such things...Also wasn't the last Opeth CD more or less live also? - I heard that they were leaving in the surrounding sounds of the accoustic guitar's etc rather than removing them to make the sound cleaner.....I know that Floyd (with DSOTM) were at the fore-front of the uber-production studio as instrument mind-set.......although Yes with Squire took ages to lay down licks as they had to be perfectly recorded...suppose they can do that post recording now though....
Digital art played on flat screens will have about as much longevity as a Mac Donalds french fry.
Needless to say that I prefer my french fries fresh.
This will make you giggle.
Once cooked McDonalds french fries are essentially dehydrated, mos all of the water has been driven off by the heat from the oil, after that they are coated with salt that removes any remaining water. The salt and lack of natural water is why you get thirsty eating MickyD's fries. However, apart from the salt there is nothing sinister about that - we happily eat cured bacon that has been dehydrated in salt. Except think about why we dehydrate foods and what happens to them as a result of that - we do it to preserve them, curing bacon drives off the excess water and stops the pork meat from spoiling, salted fish will keep for months, preserved fruits and vegitables are made to last by replacing the water with something else - often sugars but oils work just as well. Now lets look at what happens to MickyD's french fries after a year:
You'll have to ignore the comentary because the video presenter has jumped a false conclusion - there are no preservatives in MickyD french fries - it would be a waste of money adding something to extend the shelf life of a product that doesn't need a shelf-life - a corporation like McDs does not spend money on things it doesn't need. Skip to about 1:10 to see what deep fat dehydration and salt curing does to the longevity of a MacDonalds french fry.
THEY ARE CALLED CHIPS !!! - MEAT GROWLER (OR BABBIES YEAD), CHIPS PEAS N GRAVY...ROCKS....
^^^^ So all my thoughts about the freshness of McD's french fries were an illusion. The last ones that I ate (early August 2012) could easily have been 2011 or even 2010 vintage.
^I thought McD was intended for children who have just lost their milk teeth.
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
Posted: January 07 2013 at 07:49
After 1 year they may still look pretty well but after 30 minutes they are already dreadful to eat (I mean even more dreadful than when just served).
At any rate I liked Dean's statement that "the abundance of one-man bands is not the cause of anything, it could be a symptom".
We know that in Japan an alarming percentage of teens just stay in their tiny apartment for months, only communicating with the outside world via computer and eating home-delivered fast food. There are symptoms all over the place.
In some way I thought that we proggers in the 21st century somehow embodied a sort of resistance to the trend of ultra-capitalism in music (extend to other areas if you wish). Prog is supposed to place artistic integrity before commercial and economical pressures.
I understand the current challenges for Prog musicians and fully sympathize with them, but if Prog music itself succumbs to economical pressures and starts to produce a mediocre average level of music because of that, then the whole edifice is in danger, maybe not directly for us but for the generations to come. As the world is today, Prog should be preserved as an example of artistic integrity in music, same as other artistic forms (painting, architecture, literature etc) have with non-commercial artistic statements.
I realise that this is a hard topic. Many people still release top-quality Prog, no question about it.
But having also Prog-minded people being able to release mediocre music at a very affordable cost... it can be seen as a good thing, and it may well be. Is it in the long term? Sorry I'm not clever enough to say.
The Louvre with be around and of interest to future generations for a lot longer than the Computer museum in San Jose. Digital art played on flat screens will have about as much longevity as a Mac Donalds french fry.
A persons itunes library will not have the lasting quality level of a great vinyl collection.
If you don't understand this.. you need to have your ears examined.
I'm guessing you're over 40 years old right? Because it's incredibly short sighted to dismiss the digital age like that. It's taking over and improving our quality of life.
I have only heard such archaic opinions from the older generation stuck in the past... In every generation there are always people dismissing current advances in favour of older tech/opinions/attitudes. I wish people like you could step back and see how you look from the outside.
Ridiculous, that's what.
I wish there was a way that I could reach you just with a few points if I may. Please understand that you must examine both sides and the pros and cons of both generations. As it was stated before by a experienced musician on this thread...well, the point is that the musician was never letting go of unorthodox recording methods in total favor of digital dependency. This is interesting and very creative mixing influences of the past with new technology, but it is rare when you calculate the percentage of musicians who find past methods laughable or even moronic. Innovators existed during the analog period and they took the quantum leap with the technology. For example the first artist to create electronic sequences by merely doing basic time consuming overdubs. Wendy Carlos,, Mort Garson, Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze laid foundations of recordng methods for future 80's electronic artists and beyond.
I feel that vinyl is senseless to my ear. I was spoiled by the cutting edge of Zappa's production once it was released on compact disc and sold my vinyl. I am more disturbed by this programming in the minds of digital fanatics where upon an attitude of their own expresses that digital technology completely rules and the past is senseless. This is all around me and I am not a sweety looking for sympathy but merely stating a fact which exist through some kind of corrupted mind set that closes off barriers of generations. How ignorant it is to programme your mind to think only of technology and that creative music from the past is useless compared to what can be accomplished today. I am in and out of professional recording studios, rehearsal rooms, venues,...every week and I witness this attitude more than the occasional artist who wants to be like Mike Oldfield. Someone who wants to educate themselves to both sides and have awareness and appreciate changes in music from every decade. Digital technology combined with a person who is on 1 side of the fence is vast today and if you don't believe me then get yourself out there in the music business and see for yourself. Very sad.
What difference does it make...specifically what generation a creation in music derives from? Credit/respect should be rendered to the greats of every generation and by simply being humble..you can educate yourself in the process. But at any rate, this is the experience I have had with musicians in the business who are impatient when something doesn't happen guick enough. They assume that buttons will arrive them to their destination quicker than allowing themselves to breath and flow with the natural talent within them. It's a flippin' shame that so many musicians have to be that way. Then I cross paths with a female violinist who records progressive , understands that the open minded attitude of the people in my band and herself is rare and so I arrive to this conclusion through my exposure to the business. Technology is a wonderful tool. I love it!...but I long for the majority of musicians to go back to their old ways of thinking when every vibe in the studio made you feel free and non-restricted to the artform.
Joined: October 12 2012
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Points: 232
Posted: January 07 2013 at 10:08
If I were to name the 50 greatest Prog albums of all time.. my list would be almost entirely from the 70's and maybe a couple from the 80's... not sure any from the last 20 years.. maybe one or two if I was generous.
This should not be. and I don't want it to be this way.
I live in California.. San Francisco. This was a great hub of creative consciousness at one time. Something seriously went wrong here. Not many Prog bands around here anymore. I talk to the guy who owns Recyled Records in the Haight, and he is spinning Prog in there all the time.. and he agrees.. the music scene for Prog in SF is totally dead. How could this be? With such a rich history of music... still lots of great venues... some out of town acts touch down here.. but are basically unsupported. Belew couldn't even fill Slims which is maybe a 500 seater at best. He should be in the hall of fame.
This is just an example.. but I still go out and look and listen.. and rarely come across anything of real Prog interest.
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Posted: January 07 2013 at 10:11
Surrealist wrote:
All the great Prog bands were live bands. They to some degree had to keep their albums honest because they were expected to reproduce those sounds live.. or.. they would have to substitute with more ambitious live playing like Zeppelin did.
And exactly how many of the more well known prog rock bands of today play stuff on their albums that they cannot perform live? If you got bored in a Dream Theater concert, it does not necessarily follow that they are unable to play their own music. Such a statement would obviously be factually incorrect, to say the least.
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Points: 9869
Posted: January 07 2013 at 10:28
TODDLER wrote:
I wish there was a way that I could reach you just with a few points if I may. Please understand that you must examine both sides and the pros and cons of both generations. As it was stated before by a experienced musician on this thread...well, the point is that the musician was never letting go of unorthodox recording methods in total favor of digital dependency. This is interesting and very creative mixing influences of the past with new technology, but it is rare when you calculate the percentage of musicians who find past methods laughable or even moronic. Innovators existed during the analog period and they took the quantum leap with the technology. For example the first artist to create electronic sequences by merely doing basic time consuming overdubs. Wendy Carlos,, Mort Garson, Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze laid foundations of recordng methods for future 80's electronic artists and beyond.
I feel that vinyl is senseless to my ear. I was spoiled by the cutting edge of Zappa's production once it was released on compact disc and sold my vinyl. I am more disturbed by this programming in the minds of digital fanatics where upon an attitude of their own expresses that digital technology completely rules and the past is senseless. This is all around me and I am not a sweety looking for sympathy but merely stating a fact which exist through some kind of corrupted mind set that closes off barriers of generations. How ignorant it is to programme your mind to think only of technology and that creative music from the past is useless compared to what can be accomplished today. I am in and out of professional recording studios, rehearsal rooms, venues,...every week and I witness this attitude more than the occasional artist who wants to be like Mike Oldfield. Someone who wants to educate themselves to both sides and have awareness and appreciate changes in music from every decade. Digital technology combined with a person who is on 1 side of the fence is vast today and if you don't believe me then get yourself out there in the music business and see for yourself. Very sad.
What difference does it make...specifically what generation a creation in music derives from? Credit/respect should be rendered to the greats of every generation and by simply being humble..you can educate yourself in the process. But at any rate, this is the experience I have had with musicians in the business who are impatient when something doesn't happen guick enough. They assume that buttons will arrive them to their destination quicker than allowing themselves to breath and flow with the natural talent within them. It's a flippin' shame that so many musicians have to be that way. Then I cross paths with a female violinist who records progressive , understands that the open minded attitude of the people in my band and herself is rare and so I arrive to this conclusion through my exposure to the business. Technology is a wonderful tool. I love it!...but I long for the majority of musicians to go back to their old ways of thinking when every vibe in the studio made you feel free and non-restricted to the artform.
But it's also true, sir, that those innovators you mentioned wanted to change the face of music as it was when they emerged as exciting artists. They wanted progress. Many of the bands that we love got some bad press in their time because they disrupted the status quo.
These are Russell Mael's reflections on Sparks circa Kimono My House, "There was a sense that we were rapidly accelerating into the future, and we wanted to represent that. Rock seemed so old.......We just wanted to make music that was challenging, fresh and new."
The situation today suggests that we have become imprisoned by 'tastes'. I hear too much fussing over tastes, even from musicians "I want to make music as per my tastes" or the more dangerous "it should sound good". I have never heard such a statement from my favourite artists. Not that they don't draw a line as to what they won't do ever, but they don't like to restrict themselves by identifying and delineating their tastes. Either people are, as you say, obsessed with the digital way of doing things or swinging to the other extreme, clinging to the old school, to the old genres like blues, jazz, country and such. But creative musicians don't place themselves firmly in such camps and instead follow their instincts. If you decide to record an album very raw and 'authentic' because that's what you hear on an old record, it is already a calculated choice and a restriction on creativity. I agree that you hear some balance in the music made by an open mind - drawing freely from the old and the new rather than consciously favouring one over the other. Speaking of which, as I said once before in the thread, there are such creative artists working even today in the field of music but we are all so damn busy debating and discussing that we omit to mention their ilk and celebrate them a bit.
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Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
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Points: 5482
Posted: January 07 2013 at 11:31
The abundance of one man bands is mostly the symptom of just how much easier it is these days for one person to record than it was decades ago. The quality is based on the proficiency of the musician.
It is not impossible for a good all-around musician to create a great album by himself/herself, but there are advantages (as well as disadvantages) in playing with other musicians.
Also, another thing to note, a great musician tends to attract other musicians. So that musician may have an easier time putting together a band of enthusiastic players to perform the music.
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
Posted: January 07 2013 at 11:54
Surrealist wrote:
If I were to name the 50 greatest Prog albums of all time.. my list would be almost entirely from the 70's and maybe a couple from the 80's... not sure any from the last 20 years.. maybe one or two if I was generous. ...
Goodness ... even I am not THAT timewarp'd!
Again ... I really think you are limiting your experience to one time and place ... which is ok ... but it will take away your ability to appreciate other work in another time and place.
You can look at music history, and Bach did not happen again, and neither did Mozart, Beethoven, or Stravinsky ... and that would mean that ... your time is up and over ... and gone ... and that no other music is possible.
Once you take away the hype and the fame factor, there are many bands out there today that are excellent and stand up to any progressive history out there ... if ... IF ... only we want to look for it, or at it!
But we're timewarp'd ... ohh wait ... I've heard that song again ... dude ... you need to go see "The Rocky Horror Picture Show"
NP: Timewarp! (... and Meatloaf right after it!)
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
Posted: January 07 2013 at 13:25
Gerinski wrote:
At any rate I liked Dean's statement that "the abundance of one-man bands is not the cause of anything, it could be a symptom".
When I follow a phrase with a "but..." it means I do not agree with that statement. Scott answered the implied question rather well:
Evolver wrote:
The abundance of one man bands is mostly the symptom of just how much easier it is these days for one person to record than it was decades ago.
And those conditions are equally valid for a band - it is much easier for a band to record than it was decades ago, and we are seeing that today as well - more bands are self-recording, self-producing and self-releasing - the most popular Prog albums of the past year has seen a significant increase in self-recorded and self-released albums. This is a shifting trend that now sees the big boys having to compete with these little "indie" bands and the one-man bands (like Dean Watson and Colin Mold) on an equal footing for once.
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
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Points: 7951
Posted: January 07 2013 at 13:27
Evolver wrote:
The abundance of one man bands is mostly the symptom of just how much easier it is these days for one person to record than it was decades ago.
That's right. Knowing how hard it was before and how easy it is now, I am excited by this. I can't fathom the lack of enthusiasm about this. This is opportunity. Everything digital is not great or awful just because it's digital. MP3s suck, for instance, and I would like to hear more dynamic contrast and less compression, but we can pick and choose the best of the digital age as it evolves.
Evolver wrote:
The quality is based on the proficiency of the musician.
Right. Although I would throw in 'creativity', 'innovativeness' and other such descriptive nouns to your statement. I'm not convinced by arguments from others that quality of musicianship is or will decline. It was no better or worse in the past.
Evolver wrote:
It is not impossible for a good all-around musician to create a great album by himself/herself, but there are advantages (as well as disadvantages) in playing with other musicians.
Yes, this is a well-measured appropriately moderate viewpoint in my eyes.
Evolver wrote:
Also, another thing to note, a great musician tends to attract other musicians. So that musician may have an easier time putting together a band of enthusiastic players to perform the music.
Exactly. I don't know that we are in a down time necessarily, but even if we are, Prog will survive as an underground force through their self-produced material in a way that wasn't possible in other periods, such as in the 80s. Those that do form bands in the future will be more experienced with recording and handling their own business affairs.
THEY ARE CALLED CHIPS !!! - MEAT GROWLER (OR BABBIES YEAD), CHIPS PEAS N GRAVY...ROCKS....
It's called a Pie. Pie and chips with peas and gravy
You need to get down with the vernacular = a pie has always been known as a Growler is some parts of northern England, and a steak pudding has a colloquilaism (sp?) of "Babbies yead" or Babies head - since the pudding is squashy like that bit of a babies head is before the skull closes up...............
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
Posted: January 07 2013 at 14:00
M27Barney wrote:
Dean wrote:
M27Barney wrote:
THEY ARE CALLED CHIPS !!! - MEAT GROWLER (OR BABBIES YEAD), CHIPS PEAS N GRAVY...ROCKS....
It's called a Pie. Pie and chips with peas and gravy
You need to get down with the vernacular = a pie has always been known as a Growler is some parts of northern England, and a steak pudding has a colloquilaism (sp?) of "Babbies yead" or Babies head - since the pudding is squashy like that bit of a babies head is before the skull closes up...............
Ah, my old cocker, my point exactly. I'm glad we agree, though I'd never call those stringy things that McDonuts sell "Chips".
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Abundance of one-man "bands" in modern prog
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Surrealist wrote:
) that both generations can contest each other in making ridiculous statements.
So all my thoughts about the freshness of McD's french fries were an illusion. The last ones that I ate (early August 2012) could easily have been 2011 or even 2010 vintage.
