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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2011 at 14:34
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


Plus some logic (You claim to be logic), nobody can give more than they have, so it's obvious that we are talking exclusively of money that comes from donations.

Iván..


Ummmmm yes Ivan, clearly I realize that since that is exactly what I said. It was a humorous observation of something that is clearly impossible in the way that you explicitly made the comment. I was bringing some lightness to the discussion  which I think was clear due to the fact that I'm a person with a brain and thus can recognize events  that are logically impossible.
From what little info there is available it does appear that the Catholic church is spending more than it earns. However, I suspect that their capital will last for many decades before that causes a serious problem.
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Points: 13228 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2011 at 14:39
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

From what little info there is available it does appear that the Catholic church is spending more than it earns. However, I suspect that their capital will last for many decades before that causes a serious problem.
 
Hmmm...well, if they do ever go broke, I would gladly take some artwork off their hands. Now let me see...
 
*rustles through wallet*
 
Ummm...do you think I can get a Raphael for $46 USD?
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2011 at 14:47
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

In Europe, many countries (Austria, Italy, Germany, Swiss) make their citizens pay taxes for the various cults, including the Catholic Church.
Search for Kirchensteuer.


I simply can't understand the concept of a Church tax, probably comes from a concordat.

Iván
            
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2011 at 14:52
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Isn't that in general a true statement of any religious station (ie replace "catholic" with respective church-name), even Camping's Family Radio station?
 


Not exactly, most Evangelist programs as 700 Club or all the Camping programs, attack every other church except them and try to CONVERT PEOPLE..

The mission of Evangelic Churches in South America is EXCLUSIVELY to attack and to convert Catholics, they say it clearly.

That's the biggest difference, EWTN doesn't attack any faith.

Iván.
            
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2011 at 14:56
Plus....Family Radio is a BUSINESS, with managers, Directors and two big shareholders. not a Church.

I can't get how they receive tax exemption, it's absurd, they are a business with PROFIT.

Iván
            
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 01:15
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

@ Iván - so what is the role of contemporary Catholic Missionaries?


1.- Help
2.- Heal
3.- Educate

And of course if they educate for free, they are entitled to teach their vision of truth, but they don't cease to help if a person refuses to convert to Catholicism.


It shouldn't be called "educate" then though, but "indoctrinate" ... there aren't separate "visions" of truth in education.

Originally posted by Iván Iván wrote:



Millions of lives are saved in FREE Catholic hospitals and clinics around the world, millions are taught to read and write, Why shouldn't they teach their vision of truth?

Iván

It would be more honest to simply keep those activities separated:

1. Help
2. Heal
3. Educate
4. Indoctrinate

1, 2 and 3 can - and should - be provided independently of 4.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 01:20
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

 

Anything you say about Jesus is what you think the Bible says about him.  That's fair enough, but when I offer an alternative to that interpretation (one that is grounded in ANE culture and language rather than post-1500 Westernized thinking), you criticize me for it.  That, in my opinion, is a smug laziness that until you get over, your criticisms of biblical Christianity are futile.


I've read a lot about the Bible, not only Bart Ehrman's books, but also countless websites and of course also many of your posts. How about the incredible smugness on your part, supposing that you're such a authority on the Bible that anyone who doesn't come to the same conclusions that you do is automatically wrong? I'll happily read your opinion about specific topics related to Jesus, but in order to do so you need to POST THEM. Merely mentioning that you posted them before and cannot be bothered to do so again is not only smug, but arrogant.



When I have posted a different interpretation, you almost always dismiss it.  Your dismissals look something like this:
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


You can discuss it 'till you're blue in the face - I'll still have my own opinion of how to interpret it, and I don't think it's unfair to say that many - if not most - biblical scolars would concur.



Unless there's a different interpretation of this post I should be entertaining, it looks a lot like, "I don't care what you say."

I stated my opinion and gave reasons for it - you disagreed and refused to state reasons other than ad hominem attacks and your mentioning that you gave reasons before. Sorry, but please either contribute to the discussion or shut up about it. You must have some reasons to think that Jesus wasn't a doomsday prophet ... why the hell do you keep refusing to post them? Instead we get yet another pissed off remark about what a dick Mike is in such discussions. Sleepy
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 01:28
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:



I don't mention what the Catholic Church receives from services, business or rents, because it's is nobody's  problem THAT'S NOT MONEY RECEIVED, THAT'S MONEY EARNED.

Iván

It's also money earned TAX FREE in most countries.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 01:38
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

 

Originally posted by Iván Iván wrote:



Luckily Catholics are not considered Christians by a good part of Protestants, so we are escaping almost without damage from this nonsense.

Iván

Yeah right, because Catholicism has nothing to do with crazy beliefs. Think about Camping the next time you eat your saviour's flesh and blood.


I have to be clear..

We force you to believe nothing, whatever we believe IT'S OUR FU***NG  PROBLEM, as long as we don't ask you to believe in Transubstantiation, ask you money or knock your door top tell you the good news.......Catholics don't even do Evangelism on TV as most Evangelists, we have a modest TV station that not even catholics see

Don't compare us with Camping:
  1. We don't ask anybody a dime (As a fact in 46 years I have never been asked anything except the tip I give on Church that rarely exceeds US$ 1.00).
  2. Camping apparently has made 80'000,000 in some months.
  3. Catholic Church gives much more money in charity and schools for poor  than we receive
  4. We don't make prophecies
  5. We don't tell people "If you don't believe in us you're condemned"
Whatever we do in the privacy of our Churches..Is our problem, not your's.


You're entitled to your opinion as well as your beliefs, and I am entitled to criticize them. Jesus made some pretty hefty prophecies, which of course failed to happen so the early Christians spun them into the vague non-committal message that today's churches (the Catholic church included) use to scare people. And of course the Catholic church says that you're condemned if you don't believe ... the fact that most Catholics in civilized countries today aren't really believers anymore does not change the underlying system. The day the Pope officially and unmistakably acknowledges that you don't need to be a Catholic to go to heaven, it will usher in the end of Catholicism (because you remove the carrot as well as the stick).

Originally posted by Iván Iván wrote:



Believe me, people like you help to create the Campings, Phelps and Bob Jones of the world, because if you attack peaceful people who keep their believes to themselves and their families, many of them will become radicals, it's simple action and reaction.

The more you attack peaceful Christians, the more aggressive they will turn.

Iván

IMO you should work on your tendency to automatically see criticism as an "attack". Another thing you should work on is this generalization that you tend to apply ... I compared *Jesus* (as described in the Bible) to Camping, not today's moderate Christians, and I said that one thing all believers have in common is - guess what - belief without evidence. Please don't spin that into me saying that they're all equally crazy or even dangerous.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - May 26 2011 at 01:40
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 06:01
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Plus....Family Radio is a BUSINESS, with managers, Directors and two big shareholders. not a Church.

I can't get how they receive tax exemption, it's absurd, they are a business with PROFIT.

Iván
EWTN is a BUSINESS, with a President/CEO, Chairman, 21 members on Board of Directors, Managers and one big "shareholder". not a Church.
 
I can't get how they receive tax exemption, it's absurd, they are a business with PROFIT.
 
=====================================================================================
 
I understand the need for all churches of all denominations to distance themselves from one faction that has gone "rogue" and brought discredit and disrespect to the name of that religion, but it is dangerous ground to tread since the same words and phrases can be levelled at any church or religious organisation. When the revenue into an organisation exceeds the net expenditure the result is profit regardless of how that excess disposed of. In nonprofit organisations that excess cannot be paid to owners and shareholders, it has to be used by them to help pursue its goals - Family Radio (a legal NPO) chose to spend that profit on a $100M poster campaign, EWTN (a legal NPO) feeds it into the church coffers. The difference is the same.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 06:07
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

  Are you nuts? 

And if you were nuts, what kind would you be?  I feel a poll coming on.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 06:15
Walnuts - definitely.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 06:17
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Plus....Family Radio is a BUSINESS, with managers, Directors and two big shareholders. not a Church.

I can't get how they receive tax exemption, it's absurd, they are a business with PROFIT.

Iván
EWTN is a BUSINESS, with a President/CEO, Chairman, 21 members on Board of Directors, Managers and one big "shareholder". not a Church.
 
I can't get how they receive tax exemption, it's absurd, they are a business with PROFIT.
 
=====================================================================================
 
I understand the need for all churches of all denominations to distance themselves from one faction that has gone "rogue" and brought discredit and disrespect to the name of that religion, but it is dangerous ground to tread since the same words and phrases can be levelled at any church or religious organisation. When the revenue into an organisation exceeds the net expenditure the result is profit regardless of how that excess disposed of. In nonprofit organisations that excess cannot be paid to owners and shareholders, it has to be used by them to help pursue its goals - Family Radio (a legal NPO) chose to spend that profit on a $100M poster campaign, EWTN (a legal NPO) feeds it into the church coffers. The difference is the same.

Obviously the non-profit status doesn't preclude (some of its) employees from receiving exorbitant salaries ... 
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 06:19
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


Obviously the non-profit status doesn't preclude (some of its) employees from receiving exorbitant salaries ... 
True - and the net operating costs and salary bill for both EWTN and Family Radio are remarkably similar, suggesting that Harold Camping of FR and Michael Warsaw of EWTN are on comparable salaries.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 07:11
The difference when it comes to the Vatican though is obviously that they accumulate(d) money and assets in order to gain power and influence, and I doubt that the typical high ranking church official has a private jet. The bottom line is that churches use the better part of their revenue from donations to maintain themselves, while people normally assume that the better part goes towards charity. 
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 07:26
Why does this always happen to threads that mention religion?  They turn into a Mike/Iván/Dean debate about Christianity vs. Catholicism.

I find it all the more amusing bearing in mind one of you is an Atheist, another is an Agnostic and another is a Catholic. LOL

I feel an English, Irishman & Scotsman joke could be made out of this...
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 07:30
Tip Toe Chick has the kind of viewpoints I had to deal with when growing up in Vineland N.J. If it's not the subject of suicide then it's evil Rock music and as pathetic as it all seems....every darn place you went in Vineland there were people like this breathing down your neck   hoping and wishing you would take the right steps which would be actions like burning your album collection, giving into their version of Christianity, etc....
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 08:15
Originally posted by James James wrote:

Why does this always happen to threads that mention religion?  They turn into a Mike/Iván/Dean debate about Christianity vs. Catholicism.

I find it all the more amusing bearing in mind one of you is an Atheist, another is an Agnostic and another is a Catholic. LOL

I feel an English, Irishman & Scotsman joke could be made out of this...

Who's the agnostic - am I missing something?




Edited by Mr ProgFreak - May 26 2011 at 08:15
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 10:32
In what sense are you an Atheist Mike? Do you affirm that no supernatural beings exist or do you just reject belief in them?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2011 at 11:16
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Plus....Family Radio is a BUSINESS, with managers, Directors and two big shareholders. not a Church.

I can't get how they receive tax exemption, it's absurd, they are a business with PROFIT.

Iván
EWTN is a BUSINESS, with a President/CEO, Chairman, 21 members on Board of Directors, Managers and one big "shareholder". not a Church.
 
I can't get how they receive tax exemption, it's absurd, they are a business with PROFIT.


EWTN is the OFFICIAL STATION OF AN ESTABLISHED CHURCH, they accept the relation with the Catholic Church (The accessory follows the status of the principal), while Family Radio clearly states they have no relation with any Church, as a fact they claim every Church is ruled by Satan.

Despite this fact, I believe no Church should receive tax exemption FOR THEIR BUSINESSES (L'Observarore Romano and the Vatican Observatory pay taxes) , but they should receive exemption for their religious activities, which include charity..

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 26 2011 at 11:31
            
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