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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 16:17
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Bashing, as I use it, an irrational attack on someone, something....  It tends to be emotional and prejudicial rather than a reasoned response (often anger borne of ignorance, and sometimes borne of an ability to express oneself in a reasonable manner).   Of course saying one group of fans is better than another can be bashing, context plays a role, but if one says that one believes that one group of fans is better than another because of such and such (a reasoned response) then it's a critique. The conclusion doesn't have to be true, but hopefully there is validity to the argument.  I looked at a lot of fans before settling on one during my home renovations.  I did my research, and some fans were definitely better than others.
 
Logan, never said that ELP fans are better than DT fans, that's absurd, we have banned a coouple (Do you remember Karny?), what I said is that I read wiorst things about them and people say nothing,
 
But if I dare to say I'm not 100% sure of their Prog credentials (even when I tend to believe they are Prog), I receive a lot of harsh posts, if you read two posts above, somebody says again I insisted that DT is not Prog, something that is not truth.
 
But some people are trying at any cost to show I'm attacking them (Theo is not one of them), please, this is absurd
 
Iván
 
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Disclaimer: If DT fans feel offended because I say DT is not the best band of the world or that Petrucci is not god or  I dare to have doubts about their Prog credentials or even worst dare to say that Yes, Genesis, ELP, Kansas, King Crimson (will add 458 names more)  acted more mature in one or more situations, I'm sorry, I fall on my knees and ask forgiveness. CryCryCryCryCry
 
Also, if any of my words hurts their great sensibility, I'm also sorry and will burn my fingers with acid not to write strong words again.
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Points: 35960 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 16:33
Ivan, I didn't mean to imply that you did say that.  It was more of a response to J-Man's comments, but as I was multi-tasking (write a sentence, do something else -- I often write posts piecemeal) your post came in between mine and his.  Of course he said "saying one group of fans is better than another can be bashing" and I used it as part of the springboard for my little thoughts on what constitutes bashing.


Edited by Logan - February 18 2010 at 16:35
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 16:33
I ' m with Ivan  in the position that DT not granted yet the legendary status.
 
Big smile


Edited by Alberto Muñoz - February 18 2010 at 16:34




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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 16:35

Logan that`s the avatar that always recognize you,

Cheers
 




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Points: 66270 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 16:38
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Phil Collins is 100 times more prog than DT.
 
Now that is what I call putting words in Ivan's mouth. Wink
 
 
 
MY ATTORNEY'S HAVE ADVISED ME THAT I COULD BECOME LIABLE FOR LIBEL WITH THE ABOVE COMMENT SO I MUST MENTION THAT IT WAS SAID IN JEST.  IF IVAN SHOULD HAPPEN TO CHOKE AFTER SEEING SUCH WORDS ATTRIBUTED TO HIM THAN I MOST SINCERELY APOLOGIZE AND ASK HIS FORGIVENESS.


Edited by rushfan4 - February 18 2010 at 16:45
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 16:52
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Phil Collins is 100 times more prog than DT.
 
Now that is what I call putting words in Ivan's mouth. Wink
 
 
 
MY ATTORNEY'S HAVE ADVISED ME THAT I COULD BECOME LIABLE FOR LIBEL WITH THE ABOVE COMMENT SO I MUST MENTION THAT IT WAS SAID IN JEST.  IF IVAN SHOULD HAPPEN TO CHOKE AFTER SEEING SUCH WORDS ATTRIBUTED TO HIM THAN I MOST SINCERELY APOLOGIZE AND ASK HIS FORGIVENESS.
 
Sh!t, you scared me, I don't remember smoking anything but cigarrettes since I'm a member here. LOL 
 
Iván
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Disclaimer: If DT fans feel offended because I say DT is not the best band of the world or that Petrucci is not god or  I dare to have doubts about their Prog credentials or even worst dare to say that Yes, Genesis, ELP, Kansas, King Crimson, Phil Collins  (You may add 458 names more)  acted more mature in one or more situations, I'm sorry, I fall on my knees and ask forgiveness. CryCryCryCryCry
 
Also, if any of my words hurts their great sensibility, I'm also sorry and will burn my fingers with acid not to write strong words again.
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 18 2010 at 16:53
            
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Points: 66270 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:05
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Phil Collins is 100 times more prog than DT.
 
Now that is what I call putting words in Ivan's mouth. Wink
 
 
 
MY ATTORNEY'S HAVE ADVISED ME THAT I COULD BECOME LIABLE FOR LIBEL WITH THE ABOVE COMMENT SO I MUST MENTION THAT IT WAS SAID IN JEST.  IF IVAN SHOULD HAPPEN TO CHOKE AFTER SEEING SUCH WORDS ATTRIBUTED TO HIM THAN I MOST SINCERELY APOLOGIZE AND ASK HIS FORGIVENESS.
 
Sh!t, you scared me, I don't remember smoking anything but cigarrettes since I'm a member here. LOL 
 
Iván
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Disclaimer: If DT fans feel offended because I say DT is not the best band of the world or that Petrucci is not god or  I dare to have doubts about their Prog credentials or even worst dare to say that Yes, Genesis, ELP, Kansas, King Crimson, Phil Collins  (You may add 458 names more)  acted more mature in one or more situations, I'm sorry, I fall on my knees and ask forgiveness. CryCryCryCryCry
 
Also, if any of my words hurts their great sensibility, I'm also sorry and will burn my fingers with acid not to write strong words again.
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It must have been after a nice bottle of Peruvian wine.
 
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:10
I don't like TACAMA... don't ask me why... maybe is just the one that they bring out here to Central America... but I really do not like it... only it's effects...!!! Smile
 
BTW: I'm a huge DT fan and I don't feel offended Ivan... keep your fingers away from the acid...
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Points: 66270 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:13
I would have mentioned Tuscany wine,
 
File:Tignanello BMK.jpg
 
but I didn't want to get Ivan started on The Count of Tuscany. Wink
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Points: 66270 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:19
By the way, if any of you feel like talking about a real, an exciting, and a fairly new prog band, who might hope to be legenday some day, than check out this thread which has gone untouched for two days.  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64762&PID=3552159#3552159
Wink


Edited by rushfan4 - February 18 2010 at 17:29
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:21
LOL


Oh lovely thread, lovely people... 

Just one note: I fully agree that DT are not legends.... yet... I'm pretty sure when this generation is at the stage that the Yes-Genesis-PF generation is on right now, their members will remember them as fondly as 40-50-somethings remember their heyday-bands... Just out of sheer generational change, DT will be something like a legend... A prog legend or a prog metal legend, remains to be seen. 

Ivan put a link to a thread called "The REAL problem with prog-metal: it is not prog" as evidence of his point. Let me remind you that said thread was started by me and actually I fully agree that prog-rock and prog metal are different beasts and should be treated differently. They just share some elements. Prog-metal is a form of metal first and foremost, and prog second. 

I don't give a damn anymore about the opinion people may have of DT (I haven't actually listened to them in a while.. I'm far too happy going back to my oldest passion, classical music) but it bothers me that it can be doubted how important, essential and influential they have been for the prog-metal subgenre of metal (hence, of rock, hence, of popular music). 

If I overreacted and said we metal fans should leave the forum it has, after all, some relation to what Ivan said and I said in my post long time ago: we don't belong together. My reaction was part stupidity, I recognize that, but part suggested by my inner feeling that this is a partitioned site simply because it covers two completely different things. 

If I called Ivan an ignorant, I'm sorry if it sounded like an insult,  (in these places, being called an IDIOT is not an insult Ivan, as long as you do it matter-of-factly, as I discovered long ago). But my overt reaction was logical after I read such a inconsistent idea like "Symphony X and POS are progmetal, but not DT". Sorry, that's just illogical. As is denying that DT is the fundamental band, together with FAtes Warning, of the subgenre. Both born out of Iron MAiden's and Metallica's satanic marriage (with a lot of relatives and fore bearers left unmentioned). 

Now, feel free to do as it's necessary with DT. I still thank them for opening the prog-metal (and prog) world for me. But I don't erect pillars or totems for nobody anymore, nor do I believe that any artists can be a "god" (damn, I don't even believe God can be a "god"!)
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:39
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 

Ivan put a link to a thread called "The REAL problem with prog-metal: it is not prog" as evidence of his point. Let me remind you that said thread was started by me and actually I fully agree that prog-rock and prog metal are different beasts and should be treated differently. They just share some elements. Prog-metal is a form of metal first and foremost, and prog second. 

 
 
If I had said  "The REAL problem with prog-metal: it is not prog,I would be receiving letters with Anthrax by this moment, but you say it and it's OK.
 
You say "Prog-metal is a form of metal first and foremost, and prog second"..My God, if I had said that, J-Man would be accusing me of having insulted Prog Metal's dignity as a representative of Progressive Rock.
 
I only said "I'm not 100% sure DT is Progressive Rock", which is less strong than everything you said, and you threaten with leaving the site....God, isn't that overreacting as I stated?
 
Please J-Man, read this post andcthe previous.
 
Iván 
 
Hey Jampa, I don't like Tacama either, well except for the "Gran Blanco", which outstanding when served cold and with some fresh ceviche.
 
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Disclaimer: If DT fans feel offended because I say DT is not the best band of the world or that Petrucci is not god or  I dare to have doubts about their Prog credentials or even worst dare to say that Yes, Genesis, ELP, Kansas, King Crimson, Phil Collins  (You may add 458 names more)  acted more mature in one or more situations, I'm sorry, I fall on my knees and ask forgiveness. CryCryCryCryCry
 
Also, if any of my words hurts their great sensibility, I'm also sorry and will burn my fingers with acid not to write strong words again.
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 18 2010 at 17:43
            
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 18:19
Wonderful to see our two South American friends kiss and make upWink! In the honour of both of you, next Saturday Micky and I will visit a nice South American restaurant near here, and eat and drink to your healthClap!
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Points: 35960 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 18:28
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

[snip]
Ivan put a link to a thread called "The REAL problem with prog-metal: it is not prog" as evidence of his point. Let me remind you that said thread was started by me and actually I fully agree that prog-rock and prog metal are different beasts and should be treated differently. They just share some elements. Prog-metal is a form of metal first and foremost, and prog second. [/snip]


Sorry for snipping and taking it out of context, and writing a stupid post, but maybe cause I see metal as a form of rock, I don't see the same distinction (not disagreeing with you so much as trying to understand as I'm no metal expert).  I guess one might say that Progressive Rock is a form of rock first, and progressive rock second (though that sounds kind of silly to me).  For me creating prog is not about following a genre so much as an approach, or approaches, to creating music.  I also see it as about breaking free of typical rock or metal conventions, and I think metal is a more rigid form of music than rock generally (being s subset with more defined expectations) so perhaps, generally, there is less chance for genre-bending and experimentation within a metal context, or should say a metal framework.   Of course there are a great many bands that incorporate metal that I would be hard-pressed not to think of as Prog ) speaking approach more than genre) -- such as Hoyry-Kone, Taal, Estadasphere, Secret Chiefs 3, Kayo Dot, Morglbl etc. -- mind you, only one of those is in a metal category and even that is not a particularly metal band).  The main category of Prog Metal does sound rather less "progressive" to my ears than, say, the Experimental metal category, but many of the bands are not that unlike the symph bands approach to rock.  I've listened to Dream Theater (actually bought Scenes years ago) and it sure seemed Prog to me -- that it's also metal didn't make it any less prog than a prog band also being rock is prog.
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Points: 13032 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 18:39

First time I enter to this thread and actually read the whole of it....an intense read though, but what it makes these kind of discussions great, is that people have oppossite points of view and are willing to support their statements.

I am not really a DT follower, neither a Prog Metal fan, but cannot deny the genre is part of the progressive realm (whether I like it or not), and the band is without any doubt an icon within this subgnere, and nowadays even an icon of prog rock, but not yet a legend....let's see in some years.

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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 18:40
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Wonderful to see our two South American friends kiss and make upWink! In the honour of both of you, next Saturday Micky and I will visit a nice South American restaurant near here, and eat and drink to your healthClap!


hell yeah...  two Pisco Sours for the big Mick in their honor...  but who is going to drive us home LOL
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 18:49
anyhow.. the day DT makes an album that acclaimed by prog fans... not prog metal fans.. not by fans of the group.. then they will be legends.  Since they haven't.. and judging by their last albums.. aren't going to.

It is safe to say they are not legends in their own time.. just have a lot of fans...  but then again.   Duran Duran had a lot of fans in the early 80's.  Want to call them legendary... were they innovative .. nope.. are DT ..nope. Prog Metal existed before them... and MIGHT exist for a decade after they finally quit.   Does anyone think the complex metal has enough innovation left to sustain another 10 years... doubt it.   Look at any NUMBER of popular musical forms in their day. Forms of music that simply played themselves out, whether by playing out the musical string or by changing tastes....and were replaced by something else as the next great thing. Complex riff based prog is a dead end street.. nothing against prog metal... it's just the nature of music and has been proven time and time again.  In 10 years.. who is to say what today's DT fans will be listening to.  Experience says it probably won't be DT.. I like Duran Duran.. always have.  Every 6 months I'll pull out an album.. people grow.. tastes change.  DT simply hasn't made the defining PROG album to weather the inevitable slide of tastes and of time passing us all by.

my two cents.. and to elaborate on my earlier post.


Edited by micky - February 18 2010 at 18:51
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Points: 66270 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 19:17
Good to see your feeling better.  You must have said something nice about DT before the Yes concert and Raff knew that you had a fever and were delusional.
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Points: 66270 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 19:20
BTW, I am a prog fan who sometimes likes prog metal and I highly acclaim Images and Words, and Metropolis: Scenes From A Memory.  I guess that makes them legendary. Confused
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 19:30
At least your opinion counts 20 times more than regular DT fans... and the double than mine... acording to what Ivan said... so... finally... they are a legend... YESSS...!!!
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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