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WinterLight 
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 Posted: December 12 2008 at 09:58 |
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Certainly, provincialism has little to do with progressive thinking.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 10:44 |
 HughesJB4 wrote:
I'd comfortably say you can get into Jazz Rock/Fusion without having heard a single second of 'prog' (in the sense of what constitutes classic prog).
I know this will cause me a problem with the JRF team, but honestly I feel that Prog Metal has kept closer to Prog than JRF, with sadness I see some purely Jazz artists being added because they fuse some Rock in it without almost any Prog Relation.
I agree that Bitches Brew is a great step to Prog Fusion, but all Miles previous albums are reason enough not to add him. I don't see any Prog component in Daryl Stuermer for example.
Something that doesn't happen in Prog Metal.
You can quite comfortably get into many of the Heavy Prog bands without having heard 'prog'.
Go to a metal forum and you'll see many many Porcupine Tree fans there are and yet, don't care for classic prog at all.
Doesn't the word Heavy on the name of the genre makes at least a connection between Heavy Prog and Heavy Metal?
Most metal heads will also like Hard Rock.
You can comfortably get into RIO/Avant prog without having heard a single second of 'prog.
I was a fan of Mr Bungle before I even knew this site existed, and never consciously thought of them as prog (although certainly understood it was more complex than run of the mill rock music.
I don't think so, RIO-Avant is so complex that most of the people would need a precviouus ecxperience in Prog or will normally be a Prog fan after entering to Avant Rio.
But the real question woyuld be if an Avant Garde music fan will ever get used to Rio-Avant, I don't think so, as I told before my mother is a concertist, after some effort I made a Prioghead ofher, every time I go to her house or she comes to mine, I see her watching Prog DVD's, but even when Avant Garde music is one of her weaknes (She's a fan of Schaeffer and Karlheinz Stockhausen), she can't stand Rio Avant.
A Metalhead can be a Prog Metal fan without ever having even heard the word Prog or even continue being one without ever listening a Prog band.
You can get into math rock (which btw, I still believe is a misnomer and is in many cases more correctly called mathcore, while what is called mathcore is more technically 'technical metalcore') and never have heard a 'prog' band in your life.
Many math rock ans came from the punk scene and couldn't care less about Yes, Genesis etc, although more so from the sub genre Post Hardcore than 'straight' punk.
Well, isn't there a connection between Metalcore and prog Metal?
You can like Post Rock and not care one iota about classic prog.
Many Post Rock fans came from it from the punk angle (there isn't a great deal of musical connection of Post Rock to punk, but it's still there to some degree and certainly as music scene, Post Rock has somewhat of tendency to align themselves with punk to at least a fair extent).
Never seen Post Rock as a Prog genre, without offense for the genre, IMO it's a Punk sub product more than a Prog one.
Yes, that may be the case and is the case in many circumstances and yes, on many metal forum boards, you will come across fans of prog metal that couldn't care less about 'classic' prog.
Regardless, these people still have a strong appreciation for prog metal, but they may not ncessarily approach it directly from the 'prog' angle.
That's what I said....Isn't it?
Cheers
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cacho wrote:
Something similar that happens with Floyd fans, not the ones from here, if not only Floyd.
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That's something different Cacho, we're talking about genres or sub-genres and you come wioth Pink Floyd, a band that due to their specuial circumstances and extreme popularity, trascended Prog and was accepted by the general public.
In that case you could mention STYX or even Kansas that made the top POP charts with Dust in the Wind.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 12 2008 at 10:50
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 14:00 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
A Metalhead can be a Prog Metal fan without ever having even heard the word Prog or even continue being one without ever listening a Prog band.
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I guess that such people exist. Still, I'd think that the word "metalhead" is used for people who - regardless of whether they're familiar with genre labels - steer clear of anything that could be called prog. I guess this division exists in rock too, but in metal it's *very* evident ... some fans like prog, some don't, but there's almost no in between. People will either go for mainstream acts that will do everything "by the book", with no surprises ... or they'll gravitate towards experimental stuff. Interestingly, the latter often also listen to the mainstream acts to some extent, but not the other way round.
Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 12 2008 at 14:03
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PROGMONSTER2008
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 15:38 |
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Modern metal is just a fad and soon the kiddies will see that and when they grow up they'll see how much better real prog is ;)
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The T
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 15:44 |
Edit.
Damn I'm so bad to handle trolls...
Edited by The T - December 12 2008 at 15:49
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Equality 7-2521
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 16:34 |
PROGMONSTER2008 wrote:
Modern metal is just a fad and soon the kiddies will see that and when they grow up they'll see how much better real prog is ;) |
Makes perfect sense since modern metal is nearly a generation old.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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crimson87
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 17:36 |
PROGMONSTER2008 wrote:
Modern metal is just a fad and soon the kiddies will see that and when they grow up they'll see how much better real prog is ;) |
As much as I agree with you ,get ready for the bashing.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 17:39 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
[QUOTE=HughesJB4]
I'd comfortably say you can get into Jazz Rock/Fusion without having heard a single second of 'prog' (in the sense of what constitutes classic prog).
I know this will cause me a problem with the JRF team, but honestly I feel that Prog Metal has kept closer to Prog than JRF, with sadness I see some purely Jazz artists being added because they fuse some Rock in it without almost any Prog Relation.
I agree that Bitches Brew is a great step to Prog Fusion, but all Miles previous albums are reason enough not to add him. I don't see any Prog component in Daryl Stuermer for example.
Something that doesn't happen in Prog Metal.
You can quite comfortably get into many of the Heavy Prog bands without having heard 'prog'.
Go to a metal forum and you'll see many many Porcupine Tree fans there are and yet, don't care for classic prog at all.
Doesn't the word Heavy on the name of the genre makes at least a connection between Heavy Prog and Heavy Metal?
Most metal heads will also like Hard Rock.
So what you're saying is, Heavy Prog bands are all "hard rock" bands?
You can comfortably get into RIO/Avant prog without having heard a single second of 'prog.
I was a fan of Mr Bungle before I even knew this site existed, and never consciously thought of them as prog (although certainly understood it was more complex than run of the mill rock music.
I don't think so, RIO-Avant is so complex that most of the people would need a precviouus ecxperience in Prog or will normally be a Prog fan after entering to Avant Rio.
But the real question woyuld be if an Avant Garde music fan will ever get used to Rio-Avant, I don't think so, as I told before my mother is a concertist, after some effort I made a Prioghead ofher, every time I go to her house or she comes to mine, I see her watching Prog DVD's, but even when Avant Garde music is one of her weaknes (She's a fan of Schaeffer and Karlheinz Stockhausen), she can't stand Rio Avant.
A Metalhead can be a Prog Metal fan without ever having even heard the word Prog or even continue being one without ever listening a Prog band.
There's probably thousands and thousands of people that have never heard 'prog' that like RIO/Avant.
Chances are, Univers Zero probably has fans from classical music that couldn't give a rats tail about Yes or Genesis, and you know it.
You can get into math rock (which btw, I still believe is a misnomer and is in many cases more correctly called mathcore, while what is called mathcore is more technically 'technical metalcore') and never have heard a 'prog' band in your life.
Many math rock ans came from the punk scene and couldn't care less about Yes, Genesis etc, although more so from the sub genre Post Hardcore than 'straight' punk.
Well, isn't there a connection between Metalcore and prog Metal?
Did you even read what I said?
There is a connection between metalcore and metal, but there isn't a direct connection between metalcore and 'prog metal.
And what does that have to do with mathrock? All I said was that I believe math rock is a misnomer, I didn't say anything about metalcore in terms of prog rock at all.
And to put it more straight and more to do with what I said, there is a connection between PUNK and mathrock, but not really metal and math rock.
Yes, punk is a dirty word around Progarchives it seems, because apparently all punk bands are "3 chord bands that sound like The Ramones and The Sex Pistols and use the same song structures" and apparently if you've heard one punk band you're heard them all and they all suck. Because they fail to understand there is about 20 or so sub genres of punk, just like there is 20+ sub genres of prog.
But to full understand a genre like mathrock, you need to understand hardcore punk, and perhaps punk in general to see how the genre of mathrock came about.
And in order for me to be able to do my job on a Progressive Metal Team (since in particular Plankowner and I tend to take care more of the Tech/Extreme bands while The T is more into 'traditional' prog metal) I also have to have an understanding of punk in order not to be ignorant of various mathcore styled band.
You can like Post Rock and not care one iota about classic prog.
Many Post Rock fans came from it from the punk angle (there isn't a great deal of musical connection of Post Rock to punk, but it's still there to some degree and certainly as music scene, Post Rock has somewhat of tendency to align themselves with punk to at least a fair extent).
Never seen Post Rock as a Prog genre, without offense for the genre, IMO it's a Punk sub product more than a Prog one.
Well I never Jazz Rock/Fusion as a prog genre, at least not before I came to PA.
I started listening to Jazz Rock/Fusion in about 2006 and I came to PA in 2007, and honestly to me Jazz Rock-Fusion was just exactly that: Jazz Rock-Fusion.
But hell, you know what? I like the music and I'm happy to see it here.
Just the same as Post Rock might not have much connection to classic prog either, but when we view it in a different light and in terms of how genres got to PA, it makes sense both Jazz Rock-Fusion and Post Rock are here.
Yes, that may be the case and is the case in many circumstances and yes, on many metal forum boards, you will come across fans of prog metal that couldn't care less about 'classic' prog.
Regardless, these people still have a strong appreciation for prog metal, but they may not ncessarily approach it directly from the 'prog' angle.
That's what I said....Isn't it?
Cheers
Yes, but you make it sound like a bad thing When I think people are free to come to PA if they like prog metal and don't care for the classic prog band.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 19:10 |
HughesJB4 wrote:
So what you're saying is, Heavy Prog bands are all "hard rock" bands?
So even when not all are hard Rock bands, there's a strong connection, and if you disagree, well tell the Heavy Prog team to change their definition, because I just copied this definition from them. 
There's probably thousands and thousands of people that have never heard 'prog' that like RIO/Avant.
Chances are, Univers Zero probably has fans from classical music that couldn't give a rats tail about Yes or Genesis, and you know it.
Yes and Genesis don't represent all Prog, but Avant is still Prog.
I'm sure that SOME people who listen Universe Zeo probably don't like Genesis and Yes; as many people who like Genesis and Yes probably won't like Universe Zero, but I'm sure almost 100% of fans of any of this groups knows about the existence of the others.
Did you even read what I said?
There is a connection between metalcore and metal, but there isn't a direct connection between metalcore and 'prog metal.
Pleaser!!!! SDo you say there's not a connection between Prog Metal and Metalcore, but there is a connection between Metalcore and Metal????????????????
Yes there is a connection, and that connection is called METAL, which is present in both Prog Metal and Metalcore.
In other words, there's a METAL component in both Metalcore and Prog Metal, so if you say there's no connection between them, I don't understand you.
And what does that have to do with mathrock? All I said was that I believe math rock is a misnomer, I didn't say anything about metalcore in terms of prog rock at all.
You brought Mathrock here, I wasn't, so you must know better.
And to put it more straight and more to do with what I said, there is a connection between PUNK and mathrock, but not really metal and math rock.
Honestly, I kow very little about Math Rock and even care less, so I won't discuss about it.
Yes, punk is a dirty word around Progarchives it seems, because apparently all punk bands are "3 chord bands that sound like The Ramones and The Sex Pistols and use the same song structures" and apparently if you've heard one punk band you're heard them all and they all suck. Because they fail to understand there is about 20 or so sub genres of punk, just like there is 20+ sub genres of prog.
But to full understand a genre like mathrock, you need to understand hardcore punk, and perhaps punk in general to see how the genre of mathrock came about.
That's your stereotype, I participated in a Punk thread and mentioned that Post punk, New Age, Alternative, etc all are linked to Punk in some degree like sub-genres, while SOME of the pseudo punk experts said there was no connection for example between Blondie and Punk.
Yes I believe pure Punk is something from the past and almost dead, but there are other genres that have Punk elements.
So if you want tro accuse someone, please research who said what before making generalizations,
And what if Punk is a bad word here for some of us?
We don't need to like Punk, I honestly dislike most Punk I heard and what?
And in order for me to be able to do my job on a Progressive Metal Team (since in particular Plankowner and I tend to take care more of the Tech/Extreme bands while The T is more into 'traditional' prog metal) I also have to have an understanding of punk in order not to be ignorant of various mathcore styled band.
Well, I don't hear Math or Punk because I don't like Math pr Punk, and to work in Symphonic and Neo Prog, I don't need any knowledge of Math or Punk.
Well I never Jazz Rock/Fusion as a prog genre, at least not before I came to PA.
I started listening to Jazz Rock/Fusion in about 2006 and I came to PA in 2007, and honestly to me Jazz Rock-Fusion was just exactly that: Jazz Rock-Fusion.
So you never heard about Mahavishnu Orchestra, Jean Luc-Ponty or Brand X for example?
You must never never visited any other Prog site as:
GEPR
Proggnosis
Progressive Ears
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Brand X
Originally Phil Collins fusion side band, this evolved into a collective fusion-lite outfit. The earlier CDs are better.
Vinylroolz |
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Or Progressor?
Because all have Fusion as a Prog sub-genre, as a fact each and every Prog site that i know has Fusion as a prog sub-genre.
But hell, you know what? I like the music and I'm happy to see it here.
That's the difference betwen you and me, I like a lot of music besides Prog, but I don't want to see all music here, even if I like it, because this is not a general music site, this is a PROGRESSIVE ROCK site.
Just the same as Post Rock might not have much connection to classic prog either, but when we view it in a different light and in terms of how genres got to PA, it makes sense both Jazz Rock-Fusion and Post Rock are here.
But not all jazz Rock Fusion, just wrote a post in that thread last night.
Yes, but you make it sound like a bad thing When I think people are free to come to PA if they like prog metal and don't care for the classic prog band.
For God's sake, you write all this post and at the end you say you agree with what i say but you don't like how i said it? 
But you read what you want to read and understand what you want to understand.
I said that you don't NEED to be a Prog fan to like Prog Metal, and despite there are a few cases that don't, I'm sure that even those Metalheads that hate Progtressive Rock or haven't heard about prog in their whole lives, will probably like prog metal bands, because the main component in Prog Metal is METAL.
People is free to come here even if they don't like Prog at all, the site needs visitors.
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 12 2008 at 19:16
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micky
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 19:21 |
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wonder if the Lions go 0-16 this year...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Dean
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 19:33 |
I tried embedding this in the post, but it messes the page up too much, so please indulge me by following this link: http://downlode.org/Creative/Metal_Family_Tree/metal_family_tree.txt and look at the Metal Family tree.
This is obviously a simplified view of things, but it does show the direct antecedence between the various metal subgenres even of it misses out all the criss-crossing secondary and tertiary influences.
From that is is easy to see that they is no direct connection between Metalcore and Prog Metal, in the same way that there is no direct connection between Prog Rock and Punk Rock.
/edit - it also rather nicely shows the relationship between Power and Prog Metal in that they share a common root, but Power Metal lacks the obvious Prog Rock parent.
Edited by Dean - December 12 2008 at 19:36
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What?
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micky
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 19:41 |
Dean wrote:
From that is is easy to see that they is no direct connection between Metalcore and Prog Metal, in the same way that there is no direct connection between Prog Rock and Punk Rock.
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interesting...  though I must say... found it even more interesting that there is not direct connection between Prog Rock and Krautrock 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Dean
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 19:49 |
micky wrote:
Dean wrote:
From that is is easy to see that they is no direct connection between Metalcore and Prog Metal, in the same way that there is no direct connection between Prog Rock and Punk Rock.
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interesting... though I must say... found it even more interesting that there is not direct connection between Prog Rock and Krautrock
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Well, the tree focuses on Metal rather than Rock - so from that perspective they don't need to show any linkage... and if you think about it, early Krautrock is a synergy of Psyche, Proto-Prog, Musique Concrete and Jazz and started at pretty much the same time as Prog Rock
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What?
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micky
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 19:53 |
makes sense 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 19:54 |
Dean wrote:
From that is is easy to see that they is no direct connection between Metalcore and Prog Metal, in the same way that there is no direct connection between Prog Rock and Punk Rock.
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Never said Direct Connection Dean, but isn't the METAL element as common root of both a connection?
Just a question, Is that tree reliable?
Because according to them there is no connection between Kraut and Prog (Direct nor indirect),
If this is true, then I'm not so sutre of anything, because if as they say Kraut is a separate and independant genre from Prog with absolutely no connection except Rock as common root of both; then all the Prog sites including our's are wrong, because Kraut should not even be mentioned.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 12 2008 at 20:00
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Dean
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 20:02 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dean wrote:
From that is is easy to see that they is no direct connection between Metalcore and Prog Metal, in the same way that there is no direct connection between Prog Rock and Punk Rock.
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Never said Direct Connection Dean, but isn't the METAL element as common root of both a connection?
Just a question, agin if that tree is reliable, because if there's no connection between Kraut and Prog, then not so sutre of anything, as a fact and according to this tree, Kraut is a separete and independant genre from from Prog.
Iván |
You didn't use the word "direct" Iván, but Harry did when he said "but there isn't a direct connection between metalcore and 'prog metal" So, Yes, Metal is the common root, but then Rock is the common root to Prog and Punk - it doesn't mean the two are connected.
For the Kraut bit - read my reply to Micky - it's a Metal Tree, not a Rock Tree - Krautrock is only included for the influence on Industrial music and does not show all the other roots of Prog Rock and Krautrock, so any lack of accuracy on that side of it can be excused - the metal side is accurate enough.
Edited by Dean - December 12 2008 at 20:02
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What?
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Atavachron
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 20:09 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dean wrote:
From that is is easy to see that they is no direct connection between Metalcore and Prog Metal, in the same way that there is no direct connection between Prog Rock and Punk Rock.
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Never said Direct Connection Dean, but isn't the METAL element as common root of both a connection?
Just a question, Is that tree reliable?
Because according to them there is no connection between Kraut and Prog (Direct nor indirect),
If this is true, then I'm not so sutre of anything, because if as they say Kraut is a separate and independant genre from Prog with absolutely no connection except Rock as common root of both; then all the Prog sites including our's are wrong, because Kraut should not even be mentioned.
Iván |
I think what should be taken from this is that they developed independently of each other, both forms of rock revisionism and therefore sharing certain similarities - the period, an infusion of musics, etc, - in fact, Prog and Kraut are completely different IMO, what they share is a love of meliorism in rock music.. but that's what I love about the Prog community, it itself is progressive
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micky
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 20:16 |
Atavachron wrote:
but that's what I love about the Prog community, it itself is progressive
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ahhh.. very much so. Wise words my friend
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 20:21 |
Dean wrote:
You didn't use the word "direct" Iván, but Harry did when he said "but there isn't a direct connection between metalcore and 'prog metal" So, Yes, Metal is the common root, but then Rock is the common root to Prog and Punk - it doesn't mean the two are connected.
Dean please, Punk, Prog and Metal all are Rock genres, that's true, but have nothing else in common.
Metalcore and Prog Metal have more things in common Rock and Punk, as a fact they both priviledge the METAL element in their names.
I will give you an example of how not determinant are this words as Direct Connection.
If you see a family tree, there's no direct connection between brothers, because one doesn't descend from the other, as a fact in genealogy and family law, brothers are not direct relatives are collateral relatives
| A collateral relative (or collateral kinsman) is someone who is descended from an ancestor of the subject (but is not an ancestor or descendant of the subject).
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But you can't deny there's a lot in common between brothers.
In the same way Metalcore and Prog Metal, don't descend one from the other, but have a common ancestor called METAL.
So lets say Prog Metal and Metalcore are like half brothers, with a common parent named Metal and another different parent, in one case called Prog and in the other called Punk
But don't tell me that they are not related.
For the Kraut bit - read my reply to Micky - it's a Metal Tree, not a Rock Tree - Krautrock is only included for the influence on Industrial music and does not show all the other roots of Prog Rock and Krautrock, so any lack of accuracy on that side of it can be excused - the metal side is accurate enough.
Sorry, but I can't trust in a site that makes mistakes or not precise connections even if not about their central issue.
Iván
PD: Don't get angry but I love this debates.
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 12 2008 at 20:23
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Failcore
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Posted: December 12 2008 at 20:22 |
rogerthat wrote:
Rocktopus wrote:
Deathrabbit wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to say is that people should get their head out of their ass and quit elevating stuff they like and demonizing stuff they don't.
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Everyone draws the line somewhere. Even you progmetallers says no to suggested metalbands at times.
On the other side there's people wanting to include freejazz legends like Ornette Coleman, Albert Ayler, John Coltrane etc here. I actively listen to all of them, so not agreeing, is not about me being closeminded or any of that crap. Its ProgArchives your ultimate prog rock resource not Progressive Music Archives (where most progmetal would have an even tougher job at getting included).
Disagreeing that something is prog, is not demonizing.
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Deathrabbit can speak for himself, but I don't think it was directed at you, rather at the "how can you listen to growls, not music" posts. You don't seem to be demonizing PM but you are looking at it from a prog fan's point of view rather than a metal fan's. Which, honestly, is not so objectionable at all because I guess this is supposed to be a website for prog rock after all. But like I said, it's a Pandora's Box. What about Miles Davis, what about Prog-related then...it goes on and on.
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Yeah, I really think you missed my point. I don't care if you arguing that Yes is not prog. As long as you have a semi-decent reason, not just "I don't like it, so it can't be."
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
How can metal be prog?