"Freedom" thread or something

Finnforest wrote: If you're talking punditry, no way Stonie.  The worst fox tendencies are mirrored by Schultz, Matthews, O Donnell, Olbermann, etc......again, I just think you guys only see venom one way.  Don't feel bad, I've noticed this about liberals......it has become ingrained somehow.....the big bad Fox is horrible.....but they're perfectly willing to give vitriol a pass coming from lefties.  That's how it is.

Perhaps it is because of this one particular pesky fact: Fox News is the number one television news source as far as ratings go.  The other stations don't have nearly the same sway they do.  The right likes to pretend that the media (all of it) is liberal, but they ignore just how influential Fox has been.  And when their whole program, 24-7, is venomous hate and fear, that's a bad thing.

Finnforest wrote: ^ I rest my case. You see venom and hate on one side, which is false.  Trust me.  I'm more in the middle than you, and it's on both sides of me.  Fox may have better ratings but there are more sources out there for liberal views overall.  Hell, we even fund one with tax dollars.....

Bear with me for a sec: if the "venomous liberals" are not as influential, and not as venomous, and not as inaccurate with their "facts", why would it indicate that I'm less central than you because I choose to fight Fox?

It is my views that make me "middle", not whom I find fault with.

This country has always had its share of division between the left and right, but I think that gap and the venomous turn of that division is mostly down to Fox.  I know of conservatives who call Obama "The Great Divider", but the division in this country has been widened by the anger, hatred and venom on display on Fox and not by Obama's so-called "socialist" policies (which are anything but).  Now, there is also venom on the left as well, but I think that venom is simply a reaction to what Fox began. 

Finnforest wrote: Well, I don't agree with any of the 3 points in your set-up question so no point in proceeding with that. But if you feel you're in the middle, that's fine.  I'll retract my part about being more centrist than you.  That was speculation on my part since we don't really know each other.

Alright, let me put it to you this way, and maybe you'll see why I take such issue with Fox and don't get on the cases of other news organizations:
I live in the south.  I don't, personally, know ANYONE who has told me they watch MSNBC regularly or CNN regularly.  I have, however, talked to many people who watch Fox regularly.  In the building I work in, a GOVERNMENT building, there are certain departments that will have a bunch of big monitors with screens that show information from the various systems we run, and they will often have one or two monitors with...Fox News running.  Not MSNBC.  Not CNN.  Fox.  Fox is the chosen source of information around here.  So perhaps you can see why I concentrate on them as a source of misinformation.

It's inauguration day here in DC. Yay! Naturally, I am staying home, far away fro the hoopla. If our good friend Pat is listening, I got the book he recommended, "Anarchy and the Law," and am now firmly in his anarcho-capitalist camp. A magnificent read.

Also, Geoff says of Fox: "their whole program, 24-7, is venomous hate and fear" which is utter nonsense. O'Reilly is hateful. Hannity is hateful. The rest of the crew just has opinions you disagree with. I don't see how you can interpret that as hate.


Edited by thellama73 - January 21 2013 at 13:53

Again, it is interesting how different our perspectives can be.  I would say Bush was and is treated worse than Obama generally, esp in the media, where Obama is quite literally "their guy".

I'll give you and Geoff the point that the south is perhaps quite different from what I see. 

Finnforest wrote: Again, it is interesting how different our perspectives can be.  I would say Bush was and is treated worse than Obama generally, esp in the media, where Obama is quite literally "their guy". I'll give you and Geoff the point that the south is perhaps quite different from what I see.

Agree. From my personal experience, I heard and saw much worse about Bush than I have about Obama, although I am certainly no fan of either of them. I love the South, personally, but I imagine there is quite a difference between the urban south where I have lived and the rural south where I have not.

Also, Audrey Hepburn is incredibly beautiful, Jim.

EDIT: good point, MoM. From what I understand, the political climate surrounding Lincoln's election was positively vitriolic.


Edited by thellama73 - January 21 2013 at 14:22

The Doctor wrote: There was certainly plenty of venom in the 60's/70's as well, although, again that venom was on both sides, not just the left.  But I can tell you this, never before have I seen a US President subjected to the kind of venomous attacks the way President Obama is.  And I've seen everyone since Carter.  Actually, Carter and Clinton were both maligned, but not to the extent Obama has been.  You should see here in Texas, there are newspapers dedicated to how Obama is Satan/Stalin/Hitler/Jack the Ripper all roled into one.  This shall now be known in my mind as the "Fox effect".  Yes, I know President Bush (the second one) was somewhat maligned by folks on the left, but it wasn't so nearly widespread.  Nor was he villified in quite the same way.  There were a few fringe elements that called him evil, but most of us on the left just thought he was kind of dumb.  Not the coming of the antichrist.

Bush may have been villified.  I remember, back when I was a raging conservative, thinking he was.  However...he may have deserved it, as well.  The country got much, much worse during his presidency.  The right is painting Obama as a villain while the country has actually been on a road to recovery.  They like to pretend it is not, but when you look at the numbers, it most definitely has.

As to the south being different - YES.  It absolutely is.  People absolutely hate Obama here.  I'll never forget going into the men's room at work and finding that someone had strategically left a letter from the "Christian Anti-Communist" group in the stall.  I read it, and it was quite insane.  Talked all about how Obama was trying to outlaw Christianity and impoverish the righteous and such nonsense.  I considered taking it back to my desk, writing "thanks for the extra toilet paper, but it's a bit rough" on the thing and placing it back where I found it.  But I just threw it out on my way out.  Also, I have talked with people who actually do consider Obama to be the incarnation of evil.  These are real people - who are otherwise reasonable and intelligent.  It's quite frightening to see how deeply they are convinced of this nonsense.  And you can't talk them out of it, either.  I've tried.  It's like a cult - like dealing with a brainwashed person.  Every statistical study, story, quote, etc. you bring up that undermines their position will receive the response: "well, you can't trust the media.  They're always making stuff up."  It's such a double-standard too, because they obviously trust certain media sources - ones which tell them "get your truth from us and no one else."


Edited by dtguitarfan - January 21 2013 at 14:48

They were both authoritarians.  Again, "right" and "left" is a myth.  There's no way in hell Obama is a "centrist" and no way we should even be using these terms for a president.  The president's powers are meant to be limited to being the commander in chief of the army, appointing judges and ambassadors, pardoning people, and making treaties (even this requires 2/3 of the Senate to agree).  We were never meant to have the imperial presidents that we've sadly become accustomed to.

Edited by manofmystery - January 21 2013 at 14:58

TheDoc: these groups are usually labeled as the "right": neo cons, neo nazis, fascists, conservatives, libertarians, anarchocapitalists, religious groups, etc etc. I would like Geoff to explain me what is common among all these groups tha make them uniquevocally "the right".

Logan: So you are anarcho-capitalist now? Do you really believe the states should disappear, everything should be privatized including the law and roads? Do you now reject the idea of a state to protect borders at least?

As an immigrant that came with all the typical anti-Bush idea of most people outside of the US when I came here to live in 2005, and with heavy left ideas, even I was surprised at the level of hate Bush received back then from the media. ALL the media. Obama gets a little from the usual suspects (Limbaugh, Hannity, etc). Bush was universally despised. Even I thought it was too much, even though I hardly agreed with anything he did.