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LearsFool ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: November 09 2014 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 8644 |
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Never spent a day in the slammer. Remained free on bail while appealing his convictions, and got them overturned.
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The Dark Elf ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13418 |
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As a gun owner (hunting rifle, Remington 12 gauge to be exact), I am getting more and more irate at the limp dick congressmen with their brown noses so far up the gun lobby's ass that it would take a crowbar and a gallon of KY Jelly to extricate their nostrils.
It should be harder to get a gun. Any gun. You shouldn't be allowed to simply buy one without a background check and register it (many states allow private sales of guns without background checks). You can't simply sell a car privately or otherwise without registration, title-searches, etc. And the Republicans letting the assault rifle ban lapse in 2004 was unconscionable (spearheaded by House Majority Leader Tom DeLay - is he still in prison, by the way?). If its hard to describe a handgun other than a human killing machine, what then assault rifles? With large capacity magazines? With barrel extender and flash suppressor? And a damn barrel shroud that protects the shooter from being burned while rattling off unlimited rounds? Asinine, simply asinine.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65883 |
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"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice; and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." -- Barry Goldwater
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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The T ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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Utah voting Democrat.
Only Trump could claim such an achievement (last time it was Goldwater).
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LearsFool ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: November 09 2014 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 8644 |
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We now have a second poll that shows strong positions for Hillary and Johnson in Utah.
Never thought I'd see the day.
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emigre80 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 25 2015 Location: kentucky Status: Offline Points: 2223 |
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Best comment on twitter today (after Trump's speech):
I can't believe we are letting a comments section run for President.
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JJLehto ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
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Yeah, tis true the politics with any tragedy is inevitable and it's indeed part of it. Someone on this very forum once said even a tragedy is often the only time we actually take a look at these issues/get the motivation for change. And I do see nothing with opining my fear that Trump will benefit from this because such a thing impacts every American, and citizens of the world as well.
It's gunna cause quite a stir that he bought this gun legally. It's known here I'm agnostic on guns. Personally, I have zero care for them and dont really care what any normal person wants to have (though I will think you kooky for needing 45 guns and AK 47s and etc) but we also need sensible gun legislation. This guy: - has been previously investigated by the FBI, twice - Was on the terrorist watch list for a time - Had ties to a suicide bomber - Its now coming out his wife has called him unstable, and physically abused her numerous times. Quoted as saying he'd come home and just start beating her if laundry wasn't done, for example. Sorry, how can a person like this legally buy a gun? If he chose to go the black market route and circumvent laws, well what can you do? I understand many crimes are committed with illegally obtained guns. That's another beast to tackle, BUT it shouldn't be so easy for someone like him to legally obtain an automatic weapon. That's my big beef with the ENTIRE gun debate. Both sides boil it down so simply. It's such a complex situation. There's the day to day violence that happens, which is either a crime of passion, or a crime of profit (or its derivatives like gang violence). The latter I think can be tackled with investment in our country, especially needy places and providing opportunity. The former, well not sure what can be done about a crime of passion. There's crimes of mental health illness, and we need a far greater mental health infrastructure anyway. Also perhaps background checks can automatically include this? Like if you want to buy a gun, automatically you should be screened and looked into. I know many will throw a fit, but frankly I don't care. I know soooo many gun lovers who say "No no I support some laws. I always have said we need to make sure people who shouldn't have guns can't get them" but then they oppose every idea ever ![]() Finally there's acts of terrorism, in which case...well not to be bleak but a motivated person will almost always find a way. This is a very deep and difficult issue.
Edited by JJLehto - June 13 2016 at 13:04 |
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*frinspar* ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 27 2008 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 463 |
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And politics is directly involved in this slaughter because the glaring holes in our bloated and dysfunctional bureaucracy and our laws are crystal clear today.
This creep was investigated multiple times for possible terror links, yet was still able to walk into a store and buy his guns legally to murder 49 people, wound 53 more, and come close to almost killing 1 of the officers who stormed in to put him down. All because the loud and proud NRA made sure he could. This is as much about politics as it is about people. |
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HackettFan ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
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2. It was brought up not as a hope that someone would benefit politically, but as a fear that someone (Trump et.al.) would. |
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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*frinspar* ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 27 2008 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 463 |
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This Pam Bondi AG in Florida seems a pretty horrible person to have exercising any authority in this case. Or in any situation at all based on her record. But, it's Florida, and they always seem to make the worst choices for themselves.
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JJLehto ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
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I mean, I know you object to capitalism/private ownership in itself but I DO get it in this way: IF you are the one who takes the loan, the risk, has the idea etc etc I understand wanting to, as it says, take a chunk. I guess it'd be like a bunch of people decide to start a coop owned/run enterprise that is successful, then someone says hey I'm gunna take this over and run it as a normal business. They'd be pretty rightly upset. So same thing with a capitalist owner. Now this isn't right or wrong, it doesn't justify either way. Just saying I get why owners would be upset at the thought and I still dont see how a true socialism can rise peacefully. It'll require SOME way of the people taking over, and seems unlikely. Even if done from the bottom up through unions slowly. Of course there are many varieties of capitalism. The lesser gov crowd has convinced both supporters and attackers we have laissez-faire or socialism...but it's simply not true, and no form is any more "valid" they simply just are. I do however feel the lesser gov styles are pretty detrimental. I always liked the idea of having wages rise as a proportion of productivity. Because far as I can tell, wages rising with productivity won't really cause much inflation, so if wages rose with productivity at lets say 80% it would keep wages rising and ensure everyone gets a good piece without the old concern of inflation BUT still would save more for the owners...and it could maintain a stability. No more of these back and forth swings between workers and owners. How? No idea
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The T ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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Did we do further damage to the victims? Did we increase the chances of further attacks? Probably nobody here is happy about the shooting so all of us just coming and saying "oh how sad I am" would be rather futile. Just as futile as saying "pray for the victims"
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A Person ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 10 2008 Location: __ Status: Offline Points: 65760 |
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Personally, I am for the abolition of countries and borders and standing armies, so I am not sure how to respond.
I do think cooperatives are better than nothing, but they still have to buy land from the government, still have to pay wages for workers so that they can survive in a capitalist society, and still are beholden to a market that is based on profit rather than being based primarily on meeting the needs of society.
Redistribution/social programs/welfare/etc are Keynesian answers within the capitalist system to address problems inherent to it. I don't think they are bad things though, they are pragmatic measures that help people now.
Examples would be multinational corporations setting up sweatshops in places where they can pay lower wages to workers, many companies like Nike and Apple do this. Most electronics are only made available to us through human rights violations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltan_mining_and_ethics I am too busy to type more. |
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emigre80 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 25 2015 Location: kentucky Status: Offline Points: 2223 |
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I did not discuss who would benefit politically. I did opine that there were people who would try to take advantage of this to benefit politically, as there are people who try to use every tragedy to prop up their political ideology. I assumed that everyone on here would agree that this is a horrible and tragic event so there was no need to say that before discussing it. We may have our differences on this website but no one is a monster that I am aware of.
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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I do not ignore class interests; I only do not advocate making class issues the sole driver of macro-economic policy.
On the other hand, they compare much better to USA in terms of having a large land area and population. Do you not see how authoritarian govt of some sort becomes a necessary evil in such a situation? A large country must maintain a strong army to defend its borders. Now if you break up USA back into 51 nation-states, then yes some of them could adopt socialism in the puritanical sense but how long they survive being conquered is anybody's guess. Even India maintains an army and has to spend a considerable portion of its budget on the army. A good portion of that allocation may well be inflated by purchase lobbies but it's nobody's case that India doesn't need an army.
Excuse me but what exactly do I need to realise when I know first hand that in India govt owned organisations, private enterprises and co-operative associations all co-exist? So, no, it's entirely possible. Amul is a shining example of a very successful co-operative.
You have once again failed to explain how redistribution of any sort could come under right wing ideology.
The short answer to the above is any political system can be corrupted over a period of time and history shows this to be the case time and again. A flaw in human nature cannot be corrected by ideological alignments. So I do agree that reforms are needed and substantially reintroducing New Deal policies, starting with the tax rate that prevailed at the time, would make a world of difference. Also bringing back the welfare that Clinton killed in the 90s. There is much that can be done to address inequality without depriving somebody's freedom to start a business venture and forcing collectivism down his throat. That would only be a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
They weren't for a long time though. And a country like Germany still has a strong domestic manufacturing economy. What is the difference between Germany and USA? Well, the difference between Made in Germany and Made in USA. Volkswagen notwithstanding, Made in Germany still stands for quality and the best technology money can buy. Made in USA has lost its sheen over the years. Outside USA, not many American companies not named Apple command respect for their products. There seems to have been a management failure in USA over the years. And while ALL workers and employees are not to be blamed for management failure, the people that make up management are also Americans. This is a pretty fundamental issue that nobody seems to talk about.
Which are some of these places? China aside, it is totalitarian states, military states, dictatorships that have fared badly in the third world. Including the extreme left states in Latin America, who were over dependent on commodity produce. It is not that the rest may exactly be shining beacons of hope but many of them have at least improved their lot over the last several years.
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The T ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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Even this useless discussion on "who benefits politically" it's better than "PrayFor[insertCityNameHere]"
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The T ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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JJLehto ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
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Had a longer response, but this^ pretty much sums it up. I am a human. Is it right that we humans do this? No. But I never claimed to be better than anyone else, and least I waited for half the day (most of which I spent avoiding all social media and news to avoid being sickened by the comments and both pro and anti gun/immigration/religious debates and politicians of all sides jumping at the bit) before getting into it. |
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*frinspar* ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 27 2008 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 463 |
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I knew that. But we're all the same people.
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Epignosis ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32588 |
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I wasn't disputing that. I was talking about people here. |
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