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rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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 Posted: March 03 2010 at 10:46 |
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It's all fine and dandy if DavetheSlave would indeed create a thread to lash out at unjustified five star ratings but that's to miss the point. The point is simply that we cannot sit in judgment on whether an album inherently deserves one star or five stars or anything else in between...a different reviewer will have a different rating for the album and there's nothing wrong with that. If it's a bad review, it can be reported and the matter ends with that. I am not even sure I like the idea of warning reviewers to use 1 star and 5 stars judiciously...people will still use it anyway.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 11:10 |
 Catcher10 wrote:
Raff wrote:
so there can be no allegations of fanboyism in those cases . |
EDIT.......fangirlism
But if a reviewer does not review artists he does not like, would that sway the whole ratings? I mean, I think you can still review an artists you don't like, you have to remove all bias from your head before pushing PLAY. Nobody here is gonna review Lady Gaga....but that would not be the same reason to not review a prog artist.
I welcome reviewers to write commentary about artists they don't listen to or don't like. Maybe they should begin the review by stating the fact......"I don't like this artist..." or "I don't listen to this artist regularly..." That would help me understand the commentary better if it is not a good one. |
I actually review LOTS of stuff I don't like - though not for this site. The difference between reviewing for PA and reviewing for one of the many reviews-based sites on the web (like the one I collaborate with) is that, in the former case, you get to choose what to review. Most people on PA review albums from their collection, or, anyway, stuff they have chosen to listen to (downloads, library loans, etc.). When you work for a reviews-based site, instead, you review what you get from artists or record labels, and in some cases you get stuff you wish you'd never heard  . This means, however, that you're not biased prior to reviewing the album, and approach it with an open mind. I know my approach to reviewing for PA has changed a lot since I started collaborating with that other site, and now I look upon many of my PA reviews as a tad too biased for comfort. Giving the top rating to an album you've known for decades, and consider a masterpiece of prog (or rock), is not the same as giving the same top rating to something you'd never heard before, often by a band or artist that was practically unknown to you, and that nevertheless leaves a strongly positive impression.
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Pekka
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 03 2006
Location: Espoo, Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 6442
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 13:10 |
Kim? wrote:
DavetheSlave wrote:
5 star ratings should be reserved for absolute genre classics, not for albums that we personally love and 1 star ratings should be reserved for albums that have no real worth to a specific genre. |
I feel that if what you are suggesting would be the case, all reviews of the same album would turn out to be the same? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. |
I see the problem too. The way I see it, rate any album however the hell you wish, but do it honestly after many thorough and thoughtful listens, and eventually the absolute genre classics will get what they deserve in their overall ratings. No one and nothing else should tell you what to rate an album except yourself, be it the status of a classic or a turd or that big bully at the back of the class.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17846
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 14:23 |
Raff wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
Raff wrote:
so there can be no allegations of fanboyism in those cases. |
EDIT.......fangirlism
But if a reviewer does not review artists he does not like, would that sway the whole ratings? I mean, I think you can still review an artists you don't like, you have to remove all bias from your head before pushing PLAY. Nobody here is gonna review Lady Gaga....but that would not be the same reason to not review a prog artist.
I welcome reviewers to write commentary about artists they don't listen to or don't like. Maybe they should begin the review by stating the fact......"I don't like this artist..." or "I don't listen to this artist regularly..." That would help me understand the commentary better if it is not a good one. |
I actually review LOTS of stuff I don't like - though not for this site. The difference between reviewing for PA and reviewing for one of the many reviews-based sites on the web (like the one I collaborate with) is that, in the former case, you get to choose what to review. Most people on PA review albums from their collection, or, anyway, stuff they have chosen to listen to (downloads, library loans, etc.). When you work for a reviews-based site, instead, you review what you get from artists or record labels, and in some cases you get stuff you wish you'd never heard. This means, however, that you're not biased prior to reviewing the album, and approach it with an open mind.
I know my approach to reviewing for PA has changed a lot since I started collaborating with that other site, and now I look upon many of my PA reviews as a tad too biased for comfort. Giving the top rating to an album you've known for decades, and consider a masterpiece of prog (or rock), is not the same as giving the same top rating to something you'd never heard before, often by a band or artist that was practically unknown to you, and that nevertheless leaves a strongly positive impression.
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Agreed
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 14:35 |
DavetheSlave wrote:
The Quiet one - I challenge you to explain to me why, relating to what I have said above, BC&SL rates 1 star. Your own words in this thread relating to the album lay bare any argument that you express now. |
The Quiet One wrote:
I don't use the definitions of the stars as a guidance, and I doubt many do, some reviewers even created their own rating system which I find perfect and a really smart thing to do.
I think the review should explain the reason of the rating, and not focus on the definition of the rating. If that were the case, everybody who rates a POP album by a Prog with more than 2 stars is wrong since they're not "Good Prog Rock release" or however it is. And I could go on with more examples.
I'll go back to your previous post when you said that I should give it a 2 stars because I said it's for fans of Systematic Chaos and Octavarium. I've also said in the review that Black Clouds was, imo, Dream Theater's poorest release, doesn't that count as "poor" which is the definition of 1 star? Does ''only for fans'' imply for fans of certain albums or the entire band?
With that you should notice that the rating system, at least imo, is rather flawed and while you should not ignore it completely, you can enhance it a bit yourself. |
If you disagree with this and you think that I should be demoted from being a "Prog Reviewer" since I don't follow the guidelines exactly as they are intended, fine, send a pm to an Admin and let them decide.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 14:38 |
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WHAT?!?
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 14:42 |
^what? my post has no sense, or are you to talking to Catcher? 
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TheGazzardian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 11 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8676
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 14:46 |
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Am I the only one that sees The Quiet One's review as actually fitting within the standards of ProgArchives guidelines? He does not say that fans of the band, but fans of what he perceives to be their worse albums, will like it. So it's a bit more specific than those who already like the band ... it's the collectors that he is saying the album appeals to. At least, that's how it comes across to me.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 14:48 |
The Quiet One wrote:
^what? my post has no sense, or are you to talking to Catcher? |
Sorry, Pablo - my 'what?' was an incredulous reaction to the idea that you might be demoted from PR because of that review. This is ridiculous - demoting people because someone disagrees with their rating.
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 14:49 |
TheGazzardian wrote:
Am I the only one that sees The Quiet One's review as actually fitting within the standards of ProgArchives guidelines? He does not say that fans of the band, but fans of what he perceives to be their worse albums, will like it. So it's a bit more specific than those who already like the band ... it's the collectors that he is saying the album appeals to. At least, that's how it comes across to me. |
I don't imply that Systematic Chaos and Octavarium are DT's worst releases, but yes, you get my point. I've frequently read that people are looking in reviews if the album is recommended or not to "such group of fans", well that's what I tried to do.
Edited by The Quiet One - March 03 2010 at 14:52
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 14:52 |
Raff wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
^what? my post has no sense, or are you to talking to Catcher? |
Sorry, Pablo - my 'what?' was an incredulous reaction to the idea that you might be demoted from PR because of that review. This is ridiculous - demoting people because someone disagrees with their rating.
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Not really about that single review, but because of admitting that I don't follow the guidelines step-by-step. Of course, I wouldn't like to be demoted, but I think DavetheSlave and Scott, quite a fair bit, have made it clear that they're not happy with Prog Reviewers that don't follow the guidelines step-by-step.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66262
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 14:52 |
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I think that you should be banned for putting up such a big stink about others putting up such a big stink about your review that puts up a big stink about the DT album which apparently is a big stink. And if I should get banned in the process for contributing to the big stink than all the better.
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 14:54 |
rushfan4 wrote:
I think that you should be banned for putting up such a big stink about others putting up such a big stink about your review that puts up a big stink about the DT album which apparently is a big stink. And if I should get banned in the process for contributing to the big stink than all the better. |
I had to look up 'big stink' in the slang dictionary, and that was a big stink to do.
(not sure if you were being humorous)
Edited by The Quiet One - March 03 2010 at 14:55
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 14:56 |
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Sorry for asking, but which guidelines didn't you follow? As I said before, I had trouble in following part of the discussion.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 14:58 |
I don't think it's possible to remove someone for their status just because two complain about a single review of your method... I think this thread is getting too long... Pablo already stated what he believes about reviews and about the so famous album... we have manifested our ideas about the case and eventhough I agree with Scott that it should be a 2 star rating according to PA standards, I certainly don't want that Pablo looses his status... that will be a case in which all reviewers will be threatened to put accurate and free reviews...
Com'n.. you are not serious right Pablo...??
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 15:07 |
Raff wrote:
Sorry for asking, but which guidelines didn't you follow? As I said before, I had trouble in following part of the discussion. |
I hope this makes it clear:
rushfan4 wrote:
Then why do you check the box that says that you agree with ProgArchives terms of reviews. This is what really ticks me off about reading reviews is that there are so many people who do not follow these guidelines. It basically makes the entire rating system worthless in my opinion. If I read you review, under PA's guidelines you should have given the album a 2-star review plain and simple. And I am not picking you Pablo, but it is this total ignorance of the PA system by so many reviewers that ticks me off. |
MY REVIEW wrote:
1 star meaning that this is Dream Theater's poorest album to date, though not necessarily meaning that this is crap. If you've been seriously enjoying their latest releases like Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, Black Clouds & Silver Linings will surely have something for you. However, if you're someone that feels that Dream Theater has started to repeat themselves since they released Metropolis Part 2, then avoid this. |
Edited by The Quiet One - March 03 2010 at 15:09
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 15:11 |
Ten pages about Pablo. 
I think the least we could have done is have collectively written a novel about his dashing adventures and winning the heart of Selena Gomez.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 15:14 |
Who is Selena Gomez  ?
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 15:15 |
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: March 03 2010 at 15:19 |
I think the energy put on this thread could be used in other place, really... that novel sounds good... don't ignore Robert...!!!
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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