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Quo Vadis Ukraine? |
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MikeEnRegalia 
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
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 Posted: October 11 2023 at 04:54 |
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^ We'll see - let's agree to disagree. And you're welcome to see Russia as a local power, but with thousands of nukes, the biggest country on the planet, spanning eleven time zones, and being in an alliance with almost three billion people and practically limitless supply of energy and geological resources, they do seem to be a superpower in my book.
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Lewian
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Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15151 |
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 05:22 |
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Prof. Jeffrey Sachs: "I'm siding with Ukraine" - other than that, not a single word in the whole video about what the Ukrainians actually want and whether they'd prefer to fight and defend themselves rather than letting themselves be overrun by Russia, which apparently is Prof. Sachs's advice to avoid more deaths. Send this to Kyiv and ask the Ukrainians whether they'd be happy having this kind of "friend".
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 06:09 |
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^ Sure, it's definitely better to send all Ukrainians to their death on the battlefield, which is the current strategy.
Hint: Sarcasm. In another video Sachs quotes Henry Kissinger: "it may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." He had a point.
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Prog-jester
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 06:15 |
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Sachs is just another useful idiot for the russians and their (in)direct supporters. Open letter to Sachs from Ukrainian economists
Edited by Prog-jester - October 11 2023 at 06:16 |
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Prog-jester
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 06:18 |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 06:22 |
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^^ Many people are useful idiots in this war. I skimmed the open letter, and will only quote the following paragraph:
"Also, you state that Russia certainly will never accept NATO in Ukraine. For your information, the UN Charter emphasizes the self-determination of peoples as a key principle. Its not for Russia to decide what alliances or unions Ukraine will or will not join. Ukraine has its own democratically-elected government (not a dictatorship, like in Russia), and this government, after consultation with Ukrainian people, will decide whether Ukraine will or will not join NATO. Likewise, NATO countries have every right to decide for themselves whom they would like to welcome in their alliance." This is once again ignoring geopolitics. To Russia it does not matter what the Ukrainian government wants, or what the Ukrainian people want. You, me and many other people around the world might disagree and think that Russia should act differently, but they won't. You can keep ignoring this fact, but at your own peril. You cannot force an opponent to accept your terms, your rules, if they are powerful enough to ignore you. Sachs doesn't argue that everyone SHOULD ignore what the Ukrainian people want. He simply points out that the Russians are doing that, and whatever we do, we have to factor that into the equation. The US would act in a similar way, by the way, that's why they have the Monroe doctrine. If Mexico suddenly decided to enter an alliance with Russia and to accept the Russians establishing military bases in Mexico, the US would not let that happen, even if every single Mexican decided to support it.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 11 2023 at 06:23 |
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snobb
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 06:27 |
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^it doesn't come easy, especially to "old Europeans", some of them still believe in fairy-tale of "civilized Dostoyevsky russia". In realty, russia always was Chingis-Chan grandsons and Rasputin's country |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 06:33 |
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^ Your racial slurs aren't helpful - and somehow these people managed to become the second-greatest power on the planet militarily, so like it or not, we will have to negotiate with them at some point - or escalate into global thermonuclear war, which I find slightly less preferable.
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snobb
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 06:42 |
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^ Putin is proud of you - that's exactly what he wants to hear, attacking Georgia, Ukarine, etc.
He laughs on fearful, lazy, fat Westerners, who even have not enough balls to fight for their values |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 06:46 |
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^ Does Putin have thousands of nukes? Or is that Russian propaganda? enlighten me.
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Prog-jester
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 06:58 |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 07:03 |
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Keep the insults coming! Make my day
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snobb
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 07:28 |
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you're ready stand kneeling and crying? does your grand grand father really was a Viking? :) |
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Easy Money
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 07:57 |
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There are two people in this thread who have had lengthy life changing 'interactions' with Russian imperialism, that of course would be Igor and Slava. Anyone else here is relying on papers, youtube videos, books etc.
I find Igor and Slava's stark and non-optimistic realism to be more believable and compelling and more in line with my own limited exposure to Russian imperialism |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 08:02 |
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^ Are victims of a crime best suited to lead the investigation?
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 08:04 |
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"Non-optimistic"? They are quite optimistic that with more weapons from the West Ukraine can drive out the Russian forces. It is people like Mearsheimer and Sachs who are starkly pessimistic.
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Easy Money
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 08:45 |
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Victims of Russian aggression are less likely to be optimistic about future Russian aggressions given that Russia has a history of aggression towards East Europe. This is the life of an East European, always concerned about the next move of the Russian government. It is a concern that never goes away.
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suitkees
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 14:02 |
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Apparently, you've made this thread into a kind of a crusade for your ideas regarding the events happening in Ukraine. To me, you have made clear that you cannot distinguish facts from opinions. Your belief that "might makes right" is a factual statement and not a value statement shows that you're not aware of your own ideological positions. It is apparently why you attach so much value to those ideologically charged discourses of Mearsheimer or Sachs, without being able to see their ideological standpoints. That also leads to your dismissive reactions on the other posters who are not agreeing with you. The facts are that Russia invaded Ukraine. Whatever pretexts, narratives or explanations we want to give to that, Russia invaded a sovereign country of which the international community, including Russia, has recognised its borders before. That's also part of geopolitics. Geopolitics is not just about the "survival of the fittest" ideology you seem to adhere to, it is also about creating an international community respecting a certain set of rules and regulations. Russia was part of that but decided unilaterally to not respect those international rules and regulations anymore. The specific reason for that is not very important, especially when the rest of the international community considers Russia's standpoint as erroneous. Geopolitics is not only about countries trying to impose their laws on other countries, but also about an international community trying to prevent this kind of abuses. So, you can continue to state that "might makes right", but that kind of statement is only validating the aggressive position of Russia regarding Ukraine despite international law, international agreements, international recognition of borders, etc. You seem to validate the situation that Russia wants to impose: annexation of the Donbass regions and Crimea. That is clearly unacceptable to most of the Ukrainians, Europeans, and, I think, to most of those who attach more importance to human and moral values than those at the helm of Russia and, apparently, you. Fact is: Russia invaded Ukraine. Value is: might is not right: the invasion is unlawful (not "right") in an international context and on top of that morally wrong. |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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omphaloskepsis
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Posted: October 11 2023 at 14:33 |
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I don't think Mike is saying that "Might is Right" is a proper moral or philosophically ethical position. I think Mike is saying that " "The mighty usually win in a violent confrontation against the weak" " If I'm misinterpreting Mike, I hope Mike corrects me. The word "right" is a poor choice for "might is right" "Right" rhymes with "might" and is easy to remember. "The mighty usually win in a violent confrontation against the weak" isn't near as catchy as "Might is right". For example, when America attacks an enemy, America ends up obliterating the enemy on the enemy's soil. Is it morally/Ethically right? Some folks say "Yes" and some say "No". It's a philosophical opinion. What good are ethics and morals? A morally ethical society functions smoother than a violent chaotic society. More goods are produced by a moral society. It's difficult to motivate yourself to go to work if you believe while you're gone at work...all your belongings will be stolen. There is a plethora of moral shades. Each society accepts a sliding scale of morality among its inhabitants. Some societies accept cheating spouses...others don't. Good and bad don't exist in nature. Genes only care about getting passed on to the next generation. That's why we die. If we lived for 500 years, we would get in the way of following generations' genes passing on. Just because Mike points out a truism... does not make Mike a morally corrupt individual. The truth can be painful and abrasive. Mike is a realist.
Edited by omphaloskepsis - October 11 2023 at 14:43 |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 12 2023 at 01:05 |
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No, not at all. If you go back and read the thread you'll see that it was others who came in an started to derail the discussion with all sorts of attacks and side-tracks, which I failed to ignore. So I explained my position, which then lead to further attacks. My intention with this thread has been and still is to hear what everybody thinks about where Ukraine is headed.
*sigh* Here's how you got this wrong: "Might makes right" is just an observation of how the world currently works (and has worked in the past). I'm not saying "Might ought to make right" or "I think that the most powerful party should win" or "The weak must perish". I'm just stating the FACT that when we look at how conflicts unfold in the world, this is what usually happens. Thus when I say "might makes right", that reveals nothing about my own ideological position.
You're really fond of the word "ideology", aren't you? Well, the experts I have refered to are human beings, and as such they surely have their own ideologies. In the case of Ukraine, when I listen to what they are saying I cannot find a lot of statements that strike me as ideologically motivated, at least not when I compare them to the stuff that guys like Prog-jester have contributed, which also adds a lot of bigotry and racism as well. I think that their assessment is quite level-headed and objective. If you disagree, please do explain why. I'd like to know how/where I might be wrong!
Yes, this is ONE OF THE facts. And it is neither contested by me nor Mearsheimer nor Sachs.
Yes, just like the US invaded Iraq and many other countries. Before you yell "Whataboutism!" at me, consider the fact that you (probably) condone these invasions precisely because of the pretext (of assumed weapons of mass destruction, which later weren't found BTW). So what is it - does the pretext never matter, or sometimes, and if so, in which cases?
*sigh* for goodness sake, it's not an ideology, but an observation. I'm not Voldemort just because I'm mentioning the name.
As did NATO when it bombed Serbia without a UN mandate. Do you condemn NATO just as you condemn Russia?
Are you aware of the fact that on a global level, MANY countries approve of what Russia are doing in Ukraine? They do not see it the same way as the NATO countries do. Also, you're contradicting yourself here, and you're using weasel words like "very". Is the reason important, or isn't it?
You're welcome to that view, and I as well as both Mearsheimer and Sachs agree that Russia's invasion was unlawful and morally wrong. The problem is that this does not matter in geopolitics, because morality is largely irrelevant to our leaders across the globe, proven time and time again in previous conflicts as well as this one. Why else would they sacrifice half a million Ukrainians in a war they have no chance winning? They'll gladly suffer half a million more if it serves their interests.
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snobb wrote: