Symphonic in the 00's, an advantage or a handicap?

When writing my recent review of Moon Safari’s Blomljud I reflected that comparing a modern band who makes a certain style which descends directly from music already done in the 70’s (symphonic in this case but the argument would apply to other sub-genres as well) is necessarily unfair.

 

The 70’s pioneers will always have the advantage of being considered as original and innovative, they created the genre after all. Modern symphonic can of course retain a certain level of originality but unless it goes very far from traditional symphonic (which probably some people would no longer consider symphonic) it will necessarily be derivative to certain extent and will sound familiar in the structures, the sounds used or whatever. It would seem that modern bands doing symphonic will always be in disadvantage even if they make music intrinsically as good as your favourite 70's stuff. It’s doubtful if any modern symphonic band can ever achieve the same timeless status as Yes, Genesis or ELP.

 

On the other hand, modern bands have 40 years of music to get inspiration from, plus all the new technology, and this might be considered as an advantage for making their music compared to the pioneers who had to come up with their music from pure inspiration, with very little existing music to base themselves on and limited technology.

 

For a band trying to make symphonic in the 00’s / 10’s, is it an advantage or an unavoidable curse?

With the advances in effects devices it should be a great time for symphonic Prog to make genuine advances in timbre. There are, I'm sure, numerous stylistic ways of stretching symphonic Prog. I've always counted Peter Gabriel's Family and the Fishing Net as a symphonic Prog work, but it has the added influences from "world music" that give it a very unique character. People tend not to even notice it's very Genesis-like arrangements.

But yes, there is a disadvantage. If a modern Symphonic Prog group's (perhaps numerous) experimentations are too subtle then they are in danger having their originality questioned.

psarros wrote: Nice topic man! my opinion is that you get what you pay...when you rely heavily on analog instruments it is unavoidable not to be compared with the monster of the 70's, that created the sound in the first place, so that is a handicap...Additionally even modern technology is not enough to save you, Moon Safari in particular sound a lot like The Flower Kings who sound a bit like Yes...That's double-unoriginal and they won't ever escape from a just decent status unless they come up with a really masterful album...but again I think the guys play that kind of music intentionally, they just love to play this style (and they play it good). On the other hand there have been bands that pushed their influences a little further with the help of their talent and modern technology.Echolyn are also influenced by Gentle Giant and Yes but it is impossible to mistaken them with any other band, they are easily recognizable from the very first note...and they have a lot more chances to be regarded as a classic act in the future. So I think it actually depends on whether a band wants to refresh a style or just stick with the classic way, because simply that's the way it likes it.

Fair enough, I guess that if you choose to follow an already existing style that is the price you have to pay, you can build upon it but you will never be regarded as an innovator.

I personally think symphonic prog is a thing of the past and bands should move on. But then again, it has its place, because many fans just want to hear new versions of an old style without much 'progression'.

Gallifrey wrote: I personally think symphonic prog is a thing of the past and bands should move on. But then again, it has its place, because many fans just want to hear new versions of an old style without much 'progression'. I think it's evident in the top album lists of recent years that many of the top albums haven't been symphonic. Even the most recent one, Echolyn's newest, is still a decent move forward. There was a thread a few months ago about Steve Wilson commenting (a few years ago, still), about how bands should stop trying to emulate bands from the past, and move forward with their music. I agree with him, although it could be argued that some of his music is hardly moving forward.

See now, I don't really see why symphonic Prog is a thing of the past any more than, say, Prog Metal. Nothing new about Prog metal. What Prog genre is actually new to the 00s or 10s, and do we just scoff at anything else that isn't? Take any of the cited genres on PA and there will be something innovative a creative person can do with it. Will they though? That's another question.

What should one make of old artists doing new albums? Steve Hackett still does symphonic Prog. Jade Warrior still does Symphonic Prog. Both of them do it with great integrity. Why should no one else be able to?

Just getting in to Echolyn, by the way. I do like them.

HackettFan wrote: Gallifrey wrote: I personally think symphonic prog is a thing of the past and bands should move on. But then again, it has its place, because many fans just want to hear new versions of an old style without much 'progression'. I think it's evident in the top album lists of recent years that many of the top albums haven't been symphonic. Even the most recent one, Echolyn's newest, is still a decent move forward. There was a thread a few months ago about Steve Wilson commenting (a few years ago, still), about how bands should stop trying to emulate bands from the past, and move forward with their music. I agree with him, although it could be argued that some of his music is hardly moving forward. See now, I don't really see why symphonic Prog is a thing of the past any more than, say, Prog Metal. Nothing new about Prog metal. What Prog genre is actually new to the 00s or 10s, and do we just scoff at anything else that isn't? Take any of the cited genres on PA and there will be something innovative a creative person can do with it. Will they though? That's another question. What should one make of old artists doing new albums? Steve Hackett still does symphonic Prog. Jade Warrior still does Symphonic Prog. Both of them do it with great integrity. Why should no one else be able to? Just getting in to Echolyn, by the way. I do like them.

Gallifrey wrote: I personally think symphonic prog is a thing of the past and bands should move on. But then again, it has its place, because many fans just want to hear new versions of an old style without much 'progression'. I think it's evident in the top album lists of recent years that many of the top albums haven't been symphonic. Even the most recent one, Echolyn's newest, is still a decent move forward. There was a thread a few months ago about Steve Wilson commenting (a few years ago, still), about how bands should stop trying to emulate bands from the past, and move forward with their music. I agree with him, although it could be argued that some of his music is hardly moving forward.

No I think Steven's music somewhat moves forward. While retaining many past techniques and sounds, he incorporates enough of his own style and modern production values, so it's not like another Flower Kings or Glass Hammer.

I personally love it when I hear the good old 70s instruments in modern music, but pure symphonic prog in this modern age doesn't do that much for me.

Symphonic prog has a pretty specific criteria. It pretty hard to write music organically, experiment with new ideas, and manage to ski ball it into the symph-prog hole. On the other hand, I don't fault an artist with sounding like another, if that's the music they truly want to be making. I just won't buy their albums.

First of all Symphonic Prog is not a thing of the past. It's only been tweaked and re-honed into the hands of a new artist. In other words, it's just evolution of the genre itself.

As far as technology is concerned that is an advantage because it offers new variety of sound when it comes to the recording and writing process of music, which can ultimately make the artist sound quite different but still adhere to the standards of the genre itself, which doesn't make much room for being original and unique as a new up and coming artist.

Above all, I think it is frusterating sometimes for bands to truly make their mark for originality and innovation with in the symphonic prog genre. For instance, let's look at a band like IQ. They are a band that is labeled to be Neo prog, which is a term that is incredibly hated by a lot of musicians in the symphonic prog genre including the great Martin Orford. Personally, I don't blame Orford because Neo prog implies lack of orginality for a genre itself. It implies new prog only deriving from the symphonic prog movement started by Genesis. To be more clear, it's like calling IQ the new Genesis.
To me, that is unfair and not true because I feel IQ sound absolutely nothing like genesis. Now in the 90's we have symphony X accused of being dream theater hacks. Don't agree with that either.
I think overall it's a very tough situation to completely sound orginal and fresh today because everyone is always gonna say well that band sounds like this other band and so forth.
It's a bit complicated because it's tough to go beyond the basics of what the genre is itself.

HackettFan wrote: Progosopher wrote: It is a disadvantage if the band is trying to emulate the past by using the same equipment and compositional techniques of the past.  When that is the case, the best that can be achieved is an elaborate tribute to a sound from many years ago as well as the bands which had produced those sounds.  However, if a band can expand on the qualities of symphonic rock, using the past as an inspiration, then they have the potential to create something new.  The influences may always be there, but the music will be original.  To be honest, not many artists can pull this off, and that is actually a different disadvantage - a greater challenge.  As is often the case, the answer lies not in sweeping generalities, but in the hands of those who create the music. I like your progosophy.

 

Edited by moshkito - December 03 2012 at 09:23