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Queen By-Tor
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Topic: Suggested move - Coheed & Cambria OUT of PR Posted: January 29 2009 at 05:37 |
Yes, I went there.
Coheed & Cambria [C&C] were, in their day, one of the most
controversial additions to ProgArchives that side of "Metallica". There
were some who supported their addition and some that thought of it as
treason - but you have to admit that these guys do play a modern form
of prog, and a lot of people may simply be offended in the fact that
they have a heck of a lot more airplay and record sales than the prog
greats of old, or the newcomers to the scene like "Phideaux", "Shadow
Circus" or even the more established acts like "Spock's Beard". Some,
like myself, grew up with cliques of kids who were mainly 'punks' who
walked around the highschools wearing C&C hoodies, t-shirts, and
constantly talking about their music.
But let's put the hype and the popularity and the ill-placed 'emo' tags aside, shall we?
What if we were to evaluate this band as though they were fresh out of
the gates with no followers and no high budget MTV music videos - where
would we place this band? They have a ton of prog in them - as someone
who owns all of their albums (skeptical at first) I can say that they
have many different facets and while some people see them mainly as a
pop group thanks to 'hits' like Favor House Atlantic or The Suffering what
great prog group didn't do that kind of thing in their day? Hell, even
the coveted ELP debut had "Lucky Man" as its final track. This is
beside the fact, because for every Ten Speed that the band has produced they've also doe a decidedly progressive track such as the excellent Keeping Secrets Of Silent Earth or 21:13.
The band's influences are highly obvious. They play a Rushly type style
and in their behind the scenes videos can even be seen wearing King
Crimson attire - this does not make the move any more warranted, but it
does go to show that they do have respect for the genre and they're not
just a bunch of flunkies who would rather wear a "I hate Pink Floyd"
T-shirt as some people may believe that they do.
In the state of our modern archives I believe that there is a perfect
fit for the band. The subgenre that so beautifully mixes genres with a
tinge of contemporary music - Crossover Prog, which did not yet
exist when the band was first added. While Crossover is not simply a
dumping ground for those bands 'not prog enough' to be put in Symphonic
but 'too prog' to be put in Related, it is a perfect fit in this case.
They have similarities to other bands in the genre - such as the
excellent Pavlov's Dog, they have a popish flavor to them mixed in with
a highly progressive touch, and they even have gone so far as to create
multi-part suites which I have seen praised in reviews for being
"seperate, yet cohesive". The band's lastest effort can be seen as a
perfect fit for the genre, as can their earlier work such as "In
Keeping Secrets Of Silent Earth: III". Like a certain frontman of one
of our crossover artists noted - (RJP of 3RDegree) "We take perfectly
good prog songs and ruin them with our pop influences" - and that's what's great about it!
Crossover Prog contains progressive rock music that, though 100%
progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music-- whether
it be the lack of emphasis on extended compositions, or an influence
from mainstream music in addition to classical, jazz and folk.
Compositions, however, still exhibit a high degree of sophistication,
sometimes outright complexity, and the musicianship and virtuosity is
often on a par with established Prog acts. Much like their kin in the
established prog sub-genres, these groups will incorporate many major
parts of what defines prog rock: the fusing of rock with the structures
and discipline of more traditional musics, the use of syntheisizers and
new technologies, intelligent thematics, and the expansion of the form.
The
defining characteristics of Crossover Prog are a pop music influence
that is largely vacant in typical prog rock. Songs tend toward shorter,
more concise presentations though still reach beyond the typical verse,
bridge, chorus pattern. The harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic structures
may be more easily digested in Crossover while not losing the musical
integrity that a prog listener expects. Whereas Prog Related bands are
generally commercial groups with certain prog elements or players that
were involved in prog acts, Crossover Prog artists are predominantly
progressive with elements of popular music. |
So empty your mind of preconcieved ideas about the band and listen to
one of their albums. I think you'll find that they are capable of
surprising you. So, I'm going to ask the Xover team to (re?)evaluate
this band. I hope that I have not shocked them to death with this post .
Comments are welcome.
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 05:44 |
At first I read "out of PA". I'm dissapointed, that would've been one hell of a thread!
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Raff
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 06:29 |
Have things to do now, but I'll answer quickly by saying that Micky and I were talking about that just a couple of days ago. He is at work now, but I'm quite sure he and his team will be willing to reassess the band for a possible move to Xover.
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LinusW
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 08:13 |
Mr. Playing With Fire Having heard one or two songs by the band, I'm afraid I don't have an informed opinion. I'm sure they'll be given a fair trial though
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Negoba
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Joined: July 24 2008
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 10:31 |
"Welcome Home" is one of my favorite modern metal songs, and I admittedly have not listened to alot of their music, but what is prog about them? If SOAD is decidedly out on this site, how did Coheed and Cambria get in?
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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The Quiet One
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Joined: January 16 2008
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 10:55 |
Negoba wrote:
"Welcome Home" is one of my favorite modern metal songs, and I admittedly have not listened to alot of their music, but what is prog about them? If SOAD is decidedly out on this site, how did Coheed and Cambria get in?
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Please don't! This thread is about moving Coheed & Cambria to Heavy Prog Xover, not about asking why Coheed & Cambria entered and System of a Down not. It's quite irrespectful to change the thread's topic, just because you're suggestion wasn't added.
Edited by cacho - January 29 2009 at 11:41
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Negoba
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 11:35 |
My question is about Coheed and Cambria, and the question is a move to Crossover Prog rather than Heavy Prog (which seems more appropriate if any move is to be made.)
From the definition above, Crossover prog is music that "though 100% progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music." Peter Gabriel, Steely Dan, Supertramp make perfect sense for this category. It also seems the proper place for Radiohead if they are to be here.
I like Coheed and Cambria, and I will try to listen to some more music before rendering more opinions, but I'm pretty skeptical at this point. Just because I like it doesn't make it prog. (Ani Difranco is extremely adventurous in much of her music, but trying to call her prog folk would be pushing it)
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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The Quiet One
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 11:51 |
Negoba wrote:
I like Coheed and Cambria, and I will try to listen to some more music before rendering more opinions, but I'm pretty skeptical at this point. Just because I like it doesn't make it prog. (Ani Difranco is extremely adventurous in much of her music, but trying to call her prog folk would be pushing it) |
I don't know their music. My response was that, why mention the band you once tried to add, but it was rejected, and come with the typical "if x, why not y". And I'm sure Mike By-Tor knows the music well, and he's not a fanboy(and if he is, he's not trying to move it because that) of the band and I'm sure he doesn't want to move the band to Xover for "fanboyism reasons". I'm not saying that what he says is 100% correct, but he must have created this thread for something, of course, if the move is rejected, that doesn't mean that the Xover team isn't "good" or 100% correct(because nobody is), just different point of views of music, and this means that neither of both are incorrect. But this is just with the hypothetical case if the move is rejected.
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Jared
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 11:56 |
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Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 12:01 |
Negoba wrote:
My question is about Coheed and Cambria, and the
question is a move to Crossover Prog rather than Heavy Prog (which
seems more appropriate if any move is to be made.)
From the definition above, Crossover prog is music that "though 100% progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music." Peter
Gabriel, Steely Dan, Supertramp make perfect sense for this category.
It also seems the proper place for Radiohead if they are to be here.
I like Coheed and Cambria, and I will try to listen to some more
music before rendering more opinions, but I'm pretty skeptical at this
point. Just because I like it doesn't make it prog. (Ani Difranco is
extremely adventurous in much of her music, but trying to call her prog
folk would be pushing it) |
They're already on the website, I'm just asking that they be relocated
to somewhere more appropriate. If you'd read my original post then
you'd know what I think makes them progressive enough to be considered
for the subgenre.
If you want to make an argument for SOAD then do it in a new thread. They've been suggested before and have not made it in.
Anyways:
I'd really hate to use the old "If X then Y" arguement, but we do have their little brother 3 in Xover, and those two bands are basically one and the same. They use they same style and have the same tenancies
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 12:02 |
Hey, just be glad I didn't throw them at your team
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Chris S
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 12:04 |
^ Goodness, we do have a reputation to uphold
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Jared
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 12:06 |
King By-Tor wrote:
Hey, just be glad I didn't throw them at your team
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Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
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Mellotron Storm
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 12:26 |
I am more then a little surprised that 3 and COHEED aren't in the same sub-genre.I mean they aren't identical or anything but are closely related.
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Negoba
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 13:05 |
I did read your original post.
Johnny Rotten would roll over in his drug-induced haze to know what gets considered punk these days, (I actually listened to PiL back in the day so don't go after the details, it's just a point) and C&C are neither punk nor prog. It's some nice pop rock with enough variation to keep my interest, but little really new to offer. The guitars are using modern tone but are playing very well worn patterns in straight time including more chugging on the E-string than.....oh well. Just because the guy sounds like Geddy Lee doesn't make them prog.
I didn't mention SOAD to open a new topic, I just use them as a reference point as where the line is drawn. I asked and many others asked that question and it's answered. I accept it and I'm not going to bring it up again, other than as a refernce point.
But it's not up to me it's up to the Xover team.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 13:08 |
If you could please state your arguments as to WHY you think that they're not prog instead of simply saying "They aren't". I wrote a friggen essay to validate my statement, the least you could do is respond to my valid points. While it is up to the Xover team, if you're passionate about them not being moved them make a statement which they will no doubt consider.
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Dean
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 13:13 |
Well... I'll have to give No World for Tomorrow another listen - to be honest I thought they were borderline up to From Fear Through The Eyes Of Madness (with that being their proggiest) with No World for Tomorrow pushing them further towards PR, but it's been a while since I last heard it.
However, '3' is a good point - I'll bear them in mind when re-evaluating (perhaps we should just swap them over ) ((however I only have one 3 CD to judge them by and that wouldn't be fair))
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What?
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 13:20 |
Thanks Dean - I'm glad someone is taking the suggestion seriously.
Unfortunately I only have the one 3 album as well (The End Is Begun),
and while the "X then Y" arguement is not the one I want to stress the
most I think it would be nice to listen to C&C within the same
context at 3 - a lesser known band who blends together modern styles
(to actually make some money while doing it - which IS NOT a crime)
with older tenancies to make something unique.
Something else to consider: would people be more apt to add them if "The Velourium Camper", "The Willing Well" and "The End Complete" were solid tracks instead of split parts of a suite? Aka: if they have a track that ran 12, 20 or 27 minutes (respectively)?
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Dean
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 13:32 |
The End Has Begun is the one I have too (and I wasn't taken with it to be frank)
I don't think track-format has much to do with how an album sounds (I can't fathom The Mars Volta format for example or the Pain Of Salvation triptic approach to track layout, but it doesn't affect my appreciation of the music)
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What?
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Raff
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Posted: January 29 2009 at 13:51 |
Today Micky will be working late - I don't know what time he'll be back home, but I suspect no earlier than 6 or 7 p.m. Therefore, if Dean and Chris want to start having a go, please by all means do. I'm sure all of the members of the Xover team will judge the band in purely MUSICAL terms, and not on the basis of other factors.
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