Should IDM be considered electronic prog? |
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Rashikal
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 07 2005 Status: Offline Points: 546 |
Topic: Should IDM be considered electronic prog? Posted: March 29 2006 at 18:17 |
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I would love to see idm artists like Autechre, Boards of Canada, Aphex
Twin and Squarepusher put under progressive electronica. Sure they
aren't rock, but is Kraftwerk (besides their early krautrock albums)???
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listen to Hella |
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ANDREW
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 21 2005 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 3064 |
Posted: March 29 2006 at 18:22 | ||
Who's IDM?
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CaincelaOreinim
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 21 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 395 |
Posted: March 29 2006 at 18:33 | ||
IDM as retarded as this will sound, stands for 'Intelligent Dance Music' yet another wonderful label...
And for once this is an interesting thread...I happen to like all the above mentioned bands...whether or not they're 'progressive' I could care less. |
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Zac M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 03 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
Posted: March 29 2006 at 18:35 | ||
I like it and it is progressive at least to me, but I wouldn't really want to see those artist added to the site.
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"Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression."
-Merleau-Ponty |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: March 29 2006 at 18:47 | ||
Ok if you like them, but this is not the right place IMO for Dance music, this is a Progressive Rock place.
None of them is even remotely related with Progressive Rock, and adding them would be a joke. There are lot of places for this kind of Music, Prog Archives is not one. Iván |
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phobos
Forum Newbie Joined: March 13 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 33 |
Posted: March 29 2006 at 18:59 | ||
As with other threads relating to this genre, I agree with Rashikal... I will say however that there has been a lot of debate on this site regarding the definition of 'progressive' in the context of 'prog' or 'progressive rock'. I will suggest that whatever the outcome of the semantic debate may be, it would be ABSOLUTELY in the best interest of this site to introduce a new category for this genre much in the same way that post rock occupies its own place. It need not be debated whether the music in question is truly 'prog' because it is evident that introduction of this genre would be in keeping with the spirit of this site even if many members do not listen to this type of music. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: March 29 2006 at 19:10 | ||
Please, none of this bands is even Rock and less Progressive, most are one man with a couple of turntables and a computer creatong beats and sampling music to be played at Rave parties for people to dance. Some members may like it but no way Dance Rave otr Trip Hop will ever be part of Progressive Rock, not a single Progressive Rock site in the world even mentions the possibility of adding them. Iván
Edited by Ivan Melgar Morey |
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phobos
Forum Newbie Joined: March 13 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 33 |
Posted: March 29 2006 at 20:42 | ||
In reference to jokes, I find these descriptions somewhat laughable especially the Squarepusher one but to speak of this further is not neccesary or helpfull and I don't want to debate Ivan. I will point out that the use of the word dance ("this is not the right place IMO for dance music") in this message is just as subject to scrutinization and differences of opinoin as the use of "progressive" can be. In truth much of this so called "dance music" is as far from dance music as fats domino is from cluster... if you really want to dance to autechre or aphex twin, quite a bit of their respective cataloges would require that you use a body which is simply not made on earth, to do so. To avoid digression, I will simply say that these various artists have been influenced by many of the same sources as progressive rock (jazz, classical, technological innovation [ie synthisizer development vs the drum machine]) and that this genre tends to push aural boundaries in terms of pallette and structure. Phobos |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: March 29 2006 at 21:31 | ||
Phobos wrote:
All this bands are catalogued as IDM which as CaincelaOreinim well pointed means Intelligent DANCE Music. All this bands are part of the Rave scenario, I don't care from who they sample, we can push the limits towards more accessible forms of ROCK but I don't believe that this is PROGRESSIVE ROCK.
I don't ever visist any of his places as noboody here, but I had to go there to find more about this bands (bevcause of course they are not even mentioned in Progressive Rock sites), more than that this places as MTV and VH1 symbol of the decadence of Prog' largely promotes and reccomends them So please, they play under a genre that uses the name DANCE, are promoted by the most infamous music pages as VH1 and MTV. BTW: Squarepushers are described by all places as drum'n'bass DJ's, so I don't know what you laugh about. Iván That's why I stand on my original opinion, it would be a joke to add them here. And if we do, lets change the name ton the NON PROG ARCHIVES. Iván EDIT: Well at least this thread has been moved out of the Prog Polls, that's an advance. Edited by Ivan Melgar Morey |
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phobos
Forum Newbie Joined: March 13 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 33 |
Posted: March 29 2006 at 23:03 | ||
I understand that the D in IDM means "dance", this takes nothing away from my argument however. My point was that the word "dance" is just that, a word and in this context may not indicate its literal meaning. In that same vein... the M in MTV stands for music right? Well, in actuality much of the programming on MTV is not musical (mainly idiotic and exploitive crap in my opinion) and everybody knows it. The original MTV was mostly music however... just as IDM owes a part of its evolution to music which was desined purely for dancing. By the way, rock'n'roll was by and large, dance music in its inception. The word "rock" has been adapted and changed however and is now used to describe many genres which are not particularly dance friendly. I must also say that MTV, and VH1 are bitterly mainstream and not at all in touch with experimental or cutting edge music. These are not the best places to research electronic music (allmusic or ishkur's guide would be better). If Ivan must look up these artists on such websites in order to speak of them, then perhaps he doesn't know much about this genre and therefore is not qualified to enter this discussion (no offence meant to Ivan, but am I wrong?). In closing I would mention that there is quite a bit included on this site which is not really PROGRESSIVE ROCK such as: prog related, fusion, electronic prog and experimental/post rock. Post rock is quite far from yes, genesis, magma, henry cow, gong or caravan. This genre contains very modern material which certainly is related to prog in a way but nevertheless is quite far removed from what is accepted as prog rock and I contend that if IDM is unsuitable as a category than so is post-rock. BTW: Ivan, maybe its just a language issue but I didn't mean to say that Squarepusher is not drum 'n' bass, obviously he is to a large degree... its the way you phrased your remark (especially the "nothing more" part) that got me. Squarepusher (especially "music is rotted one note") has systematically deconstructed and regenerated this entire subgenre with his mix of jazz instrumentation (yes he does play physical instruments) and experimental drum 'n' bass. To say "nothing more" is a bit insulting I think... but you are entitled to your opinion and I certainly respect that. Phobos |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: March 30 2006 at 00:00 | ||
Phobos, I don't judge your taste, it may be great I'm not an expert in IDM, but this is not Progressive Rock or even Prog related IMO, and aparently in the ADM that moved this thread to the NON Prog Poll. But it's a Dance genre, it's clearly related with rave, DJ's and sampling which IMO is not compatible with Progressive Rock. BTW: Also checked Allmusic and already listened Aphex Twin and Autechre after a discussion with amember who is no longer here after he became a troll. And Allmusic says almost the same, but in the same moment that MTV promotes this guys as great artists, I start to doubt. It's funny, I didn't mentioned Allmusic because according to most people here is an unreliable place, but if you want, here is how they start:
You see, even Allmusic says almost the same, and catalogues them as Techno, ambient, IDM. Experimental Techno, etc....buut of course not a single word about Progressive, even when Allmusic is one of the most inclusive and ambiguous places, if there's is a trace of a genre or even one note they mention it. Hope you don't feel offended, I respect your taste, but IMO no dance, techno ambient band has place here. Repectfully Iván Edited by Ivan Melgar Morey |
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vogre
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 14 2005 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 189 |
Posted: March 30 2006 at 01:34 | ||
Did you actualy hear those artists? It's like saying that King Crimson are a blues rock band.
All those artists among others may not be musicians but they are sculptors of some gorgeous sonic landscapes. I really doubt whether Klaus Schulze or Fripp & Eno are in any matter more prog rock.
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phobos
Forum Newbie Joined: March 13 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 33 |
Posted: March 30 2006 at 01:38 | ||
Its uneccesary (for me) to continue discussion of points pertaining to the classification of so called "dance music." I have one more thing to say however: It would help more than it would hurt to include the discussed category. I would like to think that the overiding spirit here is more progressive than conserviative (meaning that adaptation and a contemporary rather than backwards looking view of reality rule above protecting the old guard and showing pessimism in regards to change). If I were motivated to argue against categories of which I didn't approve for whatever reason, then I could make a few strong arguments (such as the one against post rock which I made earlier) but the spirit of inclusion is essential to maintain an ecceclic and intellectual (an undeniable characteristic of much prog rock) communication environment. I believe that this type of environment is natural and beneficial to this place. (I actaully have nothing against post rock. Just thought I should clarify.) |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21133 |
Posted: March 30 2006 at 02:01 | ||
I agree that the prog archives are not a suitable place for these bands, but not because they are not progressive. Some things that Aphex Twin has done are much more progressive than some of the established bands here. But they are not based on rock music, and THAT is a strong criterium against them. Having said that ... they're very welcome on www.ratingfreak.com! |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: March 30 2006 at 02:06 | ||
Yes I heard them except Boards of Canada, I normally don't speak about something I haven't heard, but in every case I read all the literature availlable about them and all agree in this points, if you don't believe me, read the quotes. But you say something that really impress me, "All those artists among others may not be musicians but they are sculptors of some gorgeous sonic landscapes." Honestly, this comment relieves me of any comment, his is a musical site to read about musical genres and about musicians. Sorry, but I believe this music has absolutely no relation with prog', we already have too many non prog bands here or at least dubious to add Musicians (?????) related to the Dance scenario. Iván |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: March 30 2006 at 02:09 | ||
Yes Mike, but this is a site for PROGRESSIVE ROOCK as a genre, noit Progressive as an adjective to qualify a band's approach to music. They may be progressive in that sense, but in no way they are part or related with the PROGRESIVE ROCK GENRE. Iván |
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yeppp
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 22 2006 Status: Offline Points: 108 |
Posted: March 30 2006 at 07:37 | ||
These bands/artist's to Prog Archives Autechre,
Biosphere, Pan Sonic, Boards Of Canada, Future Sound of london, Tim
Hecker, Monolake, Stars Of The Lid, Merzbow and MANY MORE !! I would
shure love to see them in Progressive electronic.. Progarchives has
only the early Electronic pioneers !! It's like having only Symphonic
prog : Yes, ELP, King Crimson.. you know.. Why to even make "
Progressive electronic genre to progarchives if there are only the Old
names there : Kraftwerk, Brian Eno.. blaah . Anyway prog archives
is good way for remembering the " Good old 70's " And IDM is way too New and yyees " They dont even use real instruments "
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Empathy
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 30 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1864 |
Posted: March 30 2006 at 10:06 | ||
When I actually thought about it, I was surprised that I hold was I'm
sure is the minority opinion on this. My initial thought was that the
lack of "rock" in IDM automatically precludes it from being included on
this site. But then I looked up the definition of "rock" on
allmusic.com:
"Rock & Roll is often used as a generic term, but its sound is rarely predictable. From the outset, when the early rockers merged country and blues, rock has been defined by its energy, rebellion and catchy hooks, but as the genre aged, it began to shed those very characteristics, placing equal emphasis on craftmanship and pushing the boundaries of the music. As a result, everything from Chuck Berry's pounding, three-chord rockers and the sweet harmonies of the Beatles to the soulful pleas of Otis Redding and the jarring, atonal white noise of Sonic Youth has been categorized as "rock." That's accurate -- rock & roll had a specific sound and image for only a handful of years. For most of its life, rock has been fragmented, spinning off new styles and variations every few years, from Brill Building Pop and heavy metal to dance-pop and grunge. And that's only natural for a genre that began its life as a fusion of styles." It seems to me that a lot of people's unspoken definition of what "rock" is, is whether it has guitars and/or a human playing some form of drum kit. The umbrella of "Rock and roll" has morphed substantially from its original roots in the 1950's. It may be time to revise the definition once again, IMO. One could make the argument that some of the artists already included in the "electronic prog" section don't qualify as rock. For example, I don't hear a single guitar or acoustic drumkit anywhere on Tangerine Dream's Phaedra. Why is it classified as electronic progressive ROCK then? Because it was made in the 70's? |
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Pure Brilliance:
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21133 |
Posted: March 30 2006 at 10:14 | ||
100% agreement here. But the initial question remains - why are Kraftwerk here then? I guess that they are a historic exception from the rule. Let's also not forget that in the 70s electronic instrumentation was more exotic than today ... |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: March 30 2006 at 11:13 | ||
I only have three arguments and believe are enough not to include them:
Iván
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