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Phil 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 17 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 1881
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 Topic: Bruford says Jazz is best
Posted: February 24 2006 at 09:11 |
Bought a Bill Bruford album recently which had a free CD with it
sampling some of his Earthworks output. It included an interview with
him.
In it he says (I parpaphrase) - "if a tennis player wants to be the
best, he wants to play at Wimbledon. If a percussionist wants to be the
best, he wants to play jazz. It's the ultimate technical challenge for
a percussionist". He considers himself a jazz player who "played for
about 20 minutes in a rock group" (meaning Yes).
Bill doesn't talk much about his time with KC, but he seems more fond
of them than Yes (the interview is mainly to plug Earthworks).
So is he right - is jazz the pinnacle for any drummer, meaning only those that aren't up to the task stick with prog or rock?
(PS I really like Bill Bruford's drumming......but he does come across as a bit of a snob in this interview!  )
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Manunkind
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
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Points: 2373
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 09:21 |
Let's put it this way - Buddy Rich's rock playing is said to have sucked.
If you don't feel a genre, you won't be able to play it well, no matter how technically skilled you are.
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"In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun
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Rorro
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 31 2005
Location: Uruguay
Status: Offline
Points: 508
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 09:27 |
Tht's really relative, it's not strange, if you take in view that he (at least in yes) played in a jazzy way, but i don't know. I know a lot of drummers that says that jazz is the most difficult syle for a drummer, but i don't know if that's true 'cause i dont play drums. From my personal taste, i find that the most beautifull prog drumms are those who are very influenced by jazz, but... just my taste.
Here in Uruguay there is this style called Candombe, a style where percusions are the most important part, and drummers from these lands says that Candombe is as difficult as Jazz.
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soundspectrum
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 14 2005
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Points: 201
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 09:37 |
JAzz is difficult because of it's use of polyrthyms. i think anything that uses polythrythms (greek, latin, and african music) is just as hard as jazz...
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Rorro
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Location: Uruguay
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Points: 508
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 09:49 |
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Candombe uses polyrythms, it's a style made by black people that has been brought here as slaves from Africa, mixing the african's native styles with other music from here. Now is very modernized and you see drum playing bass and keyboards
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Publius
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 14 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 382
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 09:53 |
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There's no such thing as prog drumming...nor prog anything really, you just have to play in counterpoint and polyrhythms, which are common in jazz. Jazz drumming is the best style of drumming for prog because it is complex, just how it should be.
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I'm so prog, I clap in 9/8
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Rorro
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Joined: December 31 2005
Location: Uruguay
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Points: 508
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 09:56 |
counterpoints are not only used in jazz, in fact in a lot of styles, like funk and also reggae, but i agree that there's no prog drumming style, it just take stuff from other styles of drumming, and different groups plays with differen styles.
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Chicapah
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 14 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 8238
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 11:10 |
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If Bill thinks jazz is the nazz then so be it. But he's invading some very hallowed ground when he says that. From Joe Morello to Billy Cobham and Lenny White, he's got some serious competition. He was his most innovative with Yes because he was injecting very unconventional ways of playing around the downbeat when no other drummer on the charts was going there. Just listen to "Roundabout" and realize that it was actually a hit song! I've visited his website and am really disappointed in his attitude regarding his days with Yes. His arrogance is not justified in my book.
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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain
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Phil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 17 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1881
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 11:10 |
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I really like Brufords' drumming, I admire his desire to improve
himself, but I do think he's a bit of a musical snob! Mind you if I
were to name who I thought were the best drummers I'd find myself with
a list that included many jazz players, like Billy Cobham, Tony
Williams, & Lenny White....as well as BB!
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goose
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Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 4097
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 11:13 |
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Any style is as hard as one makes it. One could probably get away with playing more simple things in rock, but there's no need to.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Online
Points: 20399
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 11:15 |
 Phil wrote:
I really like Brufords' drumming, I admire his desire to improve himself, but I do think he's a bit of a musical snob! Mind you if I were to name who I thought were the best drummers I'd find myself with a list that included many jazz players, like Billy Cobham, Tony Williams, & Lenny White....as well as BB! |
Well the man did spend around two decades playing with Fripp
If that does not affect you, nothing will!
But you are right that his attitude can be a bit precious to rockers
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Phil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 17 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1881
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 11:24 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Phil wrote:
I really like Brufords' drumming, I admire his desire to improve himself, but I do think he's a bit of a musical snob! |
Well the man did spend around two decades playing with Fripp |
Hey of course - that explains a lot!
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el böthy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
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Points: 6336
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 12:18 |
heheh true true
If Bruford says that he spend 20 minutes in a rick band, then he must also consider KC to be jazz, right??? Well, in a way it is...he at least plays very jazzy drumms...I don´t mind if he is a bit of a snob...but actually I have heard that Bruford is a very down to earth kind of guy...
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Hierophant
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Joined: March 11 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 651
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 14:02 |
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Is it me or does everyone seem to avoid being categorized as prog like the plague? What's the deal with that?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Status: Offline
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 15:32 |
Phil wrote:
Bought a Bill Bruford album recently which had a free CD with it sampling some of his Earthworks output. It included an interview with him.
In it he says (I parpaphrase) - "if a tennis player wants to be the best, he wants to play at Wimbledon. If a percussionist wants to be the best, he wants to play jazz. It's the ultimate technical challenge for a percussionist". He considers himself a jazz player who "played for about 20 minutes in a rock group" (meaning Yes).
Well, it's his taste, but the quote is not accurate either, Roland Garros, The NY and Australia open are in the same level as Wimbledon.
This are the longest 20 Prog' minutes I ever seen:
- Yes 1968 - 1972 and 1991 for UNION
- Gong, Hatfield and the Noth and Genesis 1974 - 1977
- Spirogyra 1971 - 1973 (Claims to be as guest, but this are all the albums of Spirogyra from the 70's and the band only released one more in 2000, so it sounds to me as a member)
- Steve Hackett One album (Genesis Revisited)
- UK 1977 - 1978
- Steve Howe 1975 and 1979
- ABWH 1989 - 1990
- Chris Squire 1975 (Fish out of the Water)
- Rick Wakeman 1973 (Six Wives of Henry the VIII)
- Even King Crimson which isn't either mainly a Fusion band, even when his style is very jazzy. 1973 - 1975 and 1982 - 1984
Pretty long list of not Jazz related bands for 20 minutes of his life.
Bill doesn't talk much about his time with KC, but he seems more fond of them than Yes (the interview is mainly to plug Earthworks).
He got more freedom to add percussions in King Crimson, in Yes he was more limited.
So is he right - is jazz the pinnacle for any drummer, meaning only those that aren't up to the task stick with prog or rock?
I believe a DRUMMER reaches the pinnacle in the genre he's more comfortable with, Phil Ehart, Neil Peart and Carl Palmer are IMO in or very near the level of Bill, and none of them i mainly a Jazz drummer.
(PS I really like Bill Bruford's drumming......but he does come across as a bit of a snob in this interview!)
Believe me, sometimes the interviews are edited and parts taken from the context, so you read something when the drummer didn't wanted to say that.
Iván
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alan_pfeifer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 823
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 16:13 |
Chicapah wrote:
If Bill thinks jazz is the nazz then so be it. But he's invading some very hallowed ground when he says that. From Joe Morello to Billy Cobham and Lenny White, he's got some serious competition. He was his most innovative with Yes because he was injecting very unconventional ways of playing around the downbeat when no other drummer on the charts was going there. Just listen to "Roundabout" and realize that it was actually a hit song! I've visited his website and am really disappointed in his attitude regarding his days with Yes. His arrogance is not justified in my book. |
Some artists lose favor with their eariler work. Doesn't mean that you can't like it.
anyways, as a drummer, Jazz drumming is incredibly difficult. while technical skills are of some help, the ability to lock into time and groove are paramount. Latin music is incredibly hard to play as well.
Thirdly, I think Bill really hit his strie once he linked up with Fripp. but that doesn't take away anything he did with Yes, as he helped to make that band and those 1st few albums.
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 16:33 |
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billy cobham rules :D. Drummers in prog bands are pretty much jazz drummers anyway. Bruford seems to be more of a rock drummer than most prog drummers. He pretty much only uses is his snare in vroom. He didn't need the cymbals, bass drum and tom toms, which was a bit disappointing ;)
Edited by gentletull
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The Hemulen
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 16:52 |
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Progressive rock suits jazzy drumming. Fact. Bruford showed this, as do the likes of Pip Pyle and the late Pierre Moerlen. I'll have to disagree with Goose about any genre being as hard as you make it. That style of bland so-called rock churned out by the likes of Coldplay and Snow Patrol could never be as complex as Bruford's work with Yes or KC, let alone his later jazz-based work.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 17:16 |
Trouserpress wrote:
Progressive rock suits jazzy drumming. Fact.
Bruford showed this, as do the likes of Pip Pyle and the late Pierre
Moerlen. I'll have to disagree with Goose about any genre being as hard
as you make it. That style of bland so-called rock churned out by
the likes of Coldplay and Snow Patrol could never be as complex as
Bruford's work with Yes or KC, let alone his later jazz-based
work. |
or Mani Neumeier in Germany (who, by the way, started as a jazz drummer
with the Irene Schweizer Trio and only switched to rock because quote
Neumeier "all the young chicks went with the rock musicians" unquote)
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Dan Bobrowski
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Posted: February 24 2006 at 20:44 |
I remember seeing an interview with Bill regarding YES. He said they were a rock band with R&B vocals and jazz drumming. It's not a stretch to understand what he'd said. Rather "spot on" if you ask me. Polyrythms are the key. Many modern Prog Bands are missing that key ingredient. Too much 4/4 IMO. 
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Bruford says Jazz is best
