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avestin View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Musical education
    Posted: November 02 2005 at 10:04

After following (still do actually) the thread by Proglover about musical form, I started wondering whether I am not missing anything or not fully appreciating the music I listen to due to lack of musical education. I don't mean I don't enjoy it, get ecstatic or feel pleasure when listening to music I love. I just wonder, could I have an even better listening experience to music as someone who is trained and/or taught in the musical arts.  I learned to play the piano for 7 years but I don't feel it has given me any supplemental value when hearing music. I do know, however, to appreciate good playing and virtuosity. Tell us what is your take on this, musicians and non-musicians.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2005 at 10:29
Im a musicain, I paly guitar in my prog-rock band Equinox but I dont have any musical training, I just pour through guitar mags and tabs, and just do a lot of improvising, I also sing in choir but I cant read music. I dont personally think you need to have a musical ear or be musically trained to such a high degree as John Petrucci or Rick Wakeman. If you enjoy it just continue listening to it and admire it all including the virtuoso bits for waht they are, yes there are some who are msuically trained and can enjoy it for its musical merits but most others cant. So mate dont worry about it, if you enjoy it just keep listening to it, and enjoy it for what it is, as an all round piece of music.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2005 at 10:44
    I had some piano lessons and guitar lessons.Quire singings.Music theory classes
Frank Zappa,Pink Floyd,Yes,Genesis,Rush,King Crimson,Jethro Tull,E.L.P,Rick Wakeman -They have one similarity-    I Love Them all !
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2005 at 11:06

Originally posted by Space Dimentia Space Dimentia wrote:

Im a musicain, I paly guitar in my prog-rock band Equinox but I dont have any musical training, I just pour through guitar mags and tabs, and just do a lot of improvising, I also sing in choir but I cant read music. I dont personally think you need to have a musical ear or be musically trained to such a high degree as John Petrucci or Rick Wakeman. If you enjoy it just continue listening to it and admire it all including the virtuoso bits for waht they are, yes there are some who are msuically trained and can enjoy it for its musical merits but most others cant. So mate dont worry about it, if you enjoy it just keep listening to it, and enjoy it for what it is, as an all round piece of music.

Thanx for your words. I'm just curious as to what is it that musicians (or any other musically trained person) hears and enjoys when they hear the music they love if there is even such a thing, that is in addition to :plainly" enjoying the music.

Genesisprog, did your lessons change in any way the way you listen to music?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2005 at 11:12
Well if your musician then you perhaps take a more particular notice to the tecniques and solos of the musicians...but i dont think you appreciate it more
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2005 at 11:25

Originally posted by maidenrulez maidenrulez wrote:

Well if your musician then you perhaps take a more particular notice to the tecniques and solos of the musicians...but i dont think you appreciate it more

So there is only a theoretical side to it and nothing that adds to pleasure from the music, yes?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2005 at 11:29
I studied the electric organ (2 manuals + bass pedals) for about 4 years (age 9-13) ... then I took guitar lessons for another 5 years (age 13-18).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2005 at 11:32

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I studied the electric organ (2 manuals + bass pedals) for about 4 years 

 me too (alongside the piano) I thought no one else has been through that... Now when I tell people that I play the organ - they are shocked and ask which one

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2005 at 11:37
I don't think it is necessary to have an education in music in order to appreciate good music.  In fact, I've heard that people who have perfect pitch (can sing any note on command) complain about slight intonation problems in music, and thus stop enjoying certain music.  I do recommend learning some music theory, however, simply because it is so fascinating.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2005 at 11:49
Perfect pitch is entirely unrelated to an education in music, though , and moreover, is in fact a memory skill.


Learning about music (not only learning an instrument, but that, too) can help with listening to some music, and generally not stop you enjoying music you did while blissfully unaware - unless you're impressionable to base your musical taste on the teachings of others. So, broadly, I don't see how learning about music can give anything but a more developed taste

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2005 at 11:52

Originally posted by goose goose wrote:

Perfect pitch is entirely unrelated to an education in music, though , and moreover, is in fact a memory skill.


Learning about music (not only learning an instrument, but that, too) can help with listening to some music, and generally not stop you enjoying music you did while blissfully unaware - unless you're impressionable to base your musical taste on the teachings of others. So, broadly, I don't see how learning about music can give anything but a more developed taste

Not a more developed taste, but an extra value or extra pleasure from what you hear.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2005 at 12:10
i think music is just like any other artform. the more you understand it, the more you appreciate it.
most people don't like complicated music because they don't understand it, so education could help them to enjoy it.

i have 11years experience with recorder, 4years with keyboards and 2 years with saxophone, but i'm not really sure if that helped me though :P
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2005 at 18:02
I think being able to count in 9/8 time makes me appreciate Apocalypse in 9/8 a bit more.  knowing what's going one definitely helps you appreciate music.  You have to know what a time signature change is before you can notice how it subtly makes the music more interesting.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2005 at 18:42
Hey dude,

Though I'm slightly educated in music (self-taught celtic music, played for about three years) I don't think it necessarily has changed my pleasure in listening.

Plus the more  music you listen and expose yourself to the more you learn about it.  If you read books you'll become a better writer, I believe the same goes with music.  You might not understand all the musical terminology that a lot of people sling around, but if it was explained in plain english(or whatever your native tongue may be) you'd probably understand just about any kind of concept right away.

I do notice that I pay more attention to instruments and singing voices that match what I play or am interested in playing, but that doesn't really dictate how I listen to a song.

Just gaining more experience listening to music (and watching music being played) can really enhance your listening pleasure.  Formal musical education is just music put into a more visually recognizable substance with a more conrete scheme of labels.  It just makes things easier, but I wouldn't say better.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2005 at 01:08
I never took lessons or anything, but i learned some theory and ear-training , and at this point i find that music where i cant figure out what is being played (in terms of chords, scales and stuf) captures my attention far better than simple music  where i cant hear what they play.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2005 at 11:23

I have had no musical education, and despite having played the drums in a few bands I dont consider myself a musician. That said, I love music and have to listen to it every day or else I feel something very important is missing from my day!

I can hear whether a bass line is technical or not. I can hear whether and drummer is good or not. I ca count time signatures, but most importanly I can 'feel' music, and thats what music is there for; to be felt. I dont see how a formal music education would enhance my appreciation of music.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 09:26

I don't think that perfect pitch is necessarily a memory skill - I don't have a fantastic memory, but I do have perfect pitch.

Relative pitch is a memory skill, as you need to learn it and not forget the relative sounds of intervals to work the notes out.

With perfect pitch, you just hear a note and know what it is - there's no explanation - you just know. This is, of course, 100% provable, and a favourite party trick of mine when I was younger.

A musical education is not necessary to enjoy music - that's part of the point of it to some degree.

On the other hand, if you do have it, it's like having a literary education - you understand more of what the author is doing and the sources he quotes from. Without a solid literary education, you'd have real problems appreciating say, "Ulysses" by Joyce - but you could still form an opinion on it. It just wouldn't be an educated opinion.

The same with music. Anyone can enjoy Beethoven's 5th, but if you've studied music generally, and that particular work in depth, you'll understand the compositional pyrotechnics and virtuosity that Beethoven displayed much better.

A good example of how an education can help you to understand music better is Arnold Schoenberg's "Pierrot Lunaire". To most non-educated people, it sounds like a complete racket - but I'd wager that a lot of proggers would enjoy it - click this link (Note that you'll need Quicktime in order to hear it - if you have problems with this, I can help): http://www.colleges.org/techcenter/music/modules/pierrot/200 3rec.html

 

For me, though, as a musically "educated" person (I'm not a professor or anything fancy), the delights are in the choices I have. I can simply switch off and listen, and be transported to wherever the music takes me, or I can rip the playing and compositional techniques to shreds and really enjoy being delighted at what the musicians have come up with - and feel like I've gained an insight into their creation process. It's almost like becoming a member of the band for a while.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 10:27
I still dont know, I can see the merits of being musically trained to enjoy prog  because of the scales, modes, chords, lyrics they use but I persoanlly dont think its important, I play guitar but have not been though any serious music training (even though on a personal level would like to) if you enjoy it kep listening, I also sing in a local ammature choir and we get to sing some of the most gorgous choral pieces written but I know sweet fa about it on musical terms (I cant read music) but I do know of its historical importance (im a second year history student), but I digress, with prog and musical education like I said I personally dont beileve that its all that important if you enjoy it keep it up, plus I think most of us listenin to it because it satisfys that side of the brain (or in our geeky-selves all of our brain lol) that thinks differently to the rest and is attracted to music that isn't always in 4/4 time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:19
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

I don't think that perfect pitch is necessarily a memory skill - I don't have a fantastic memory, but I do have perfect pitch.

But people's perfect pitch can change if they listen to lots of... "authentic" music - I remember this happening to my music teacher at college in the second year I was there. To me, it seems the same as the way some people can tell whether a shade of colour is slightly different to one they haven't seen for a week - they might not have very good word or face or pitch memory, but they do for colours.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:38
Originally posted by goose goose wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

I don't think that perfect pitch is necessarily a memory skill - I don't have a fantastic memory, but I do have perfect pitch.

But people's perfect pitch can change if they listen to lots of... "authentic" music - I remember this happening to my music teacher at college in the second year I was there. To me, it seems the same as the way some people can tell whether a shade of colour is slightly different to one they haven't seen for a week - they might not have very good word or face or pitch memory, but they do for colours.

I've always found it to be adaptable - it's painful if a voice is out of tune with other voices, but when pitches are in tune relative to each other, there's no reason why A has to be 440Hz and I don't get confused. It gets tricky, the closer it gets to the semitone above or below, but my internal reference never seems to change - and transposition isn't hard.

If asked to sing an A aloud, I'm generally slightly flat - unless the instrument is also slightly flat.

I couldn't tell you if a played pitch was slightly flat or slightly sharp - so it's not quite the same thing as the colour memory, but to use the analogy, I'd know if it was blue.

If I had studied anatomy or physiology or even psychology or something, then maybe I'd find it easier to accept as memory-related - but it's not something I've ever had to try to remember, even when I haven't used it for a while.

Maybe it treats different people differently

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