Bad music is a req for good music

Well as a example i will use one of the greatest prog epics of all time: Close to the edge...

One of my favorite aspects of this is that after 8 or 9 minutes it goes from this loud and funky opening to a more Dreamlike and quiet section where the phrase: I get up i get down is repeated several times. This section i think serves two purposes, the first being a contrast to the loud and frentic opening and the second is serving you a bit of a boring spot in the music.

Now this section is not ugly sounding but it lacks a strong melody and i dont think this is many's favorite spot of the song...infact i think about 1 minute into it you are all expecting Rick Wakemans fantastic Keyboard solo and Squires incredible Bass riff again...and i think that is just the purpose of this section, it is supposed to awake anticipation and excitement and when Wakemans Keyboard hits for a brief time it kind of teases you before it goes back to the I get up i get down section until it finally slips into the highlight: (atleast for me) Wakemans keyboard solo.

And i really think that this bit of boring section actually enhances the effect of that solo and makes the song much better than if the Keyboard solo just would slip in right away after the frentic opening...

Therebefore i think that sections that sound a bit weaker than rest of the song can make a good song even greater than if it just was a couple of semi-good riffs instead. Infact i find many songs that opens up with a tremendous intro is a bit boring as the best part of the intro is the cool riff while the rest of the riffs are just semi-good...So a better opening would be to open with a good riff and then a weak part and then the really fantastic riff to keep the listener going all the way...

I think there is a lot of this trickery In the mars volta's songs and although i dont think it is meant on purpose it surely makes the songs sound alot greater in my opinion...im sure you wont agree with this at all

And i dont think that only good music is made this way but i think alot of the great prog epics uses this trick and i really like it...

sleeper wrote: Well I wouldent say taht the quite sections of Genesis Suppers Ready were boring but the longer these sections go on does help to increase the tension for the next exiting passage. The trick is to make sure that they dont go on to long because they can then be harmful to the overall feel of the song and dull own the effect of the climax. The end of Willow Farm as it leads into Apocolypse In 9/8 shows how its meant to be done

Yep boring is perhaps overdoing it...they are still interesting but not so strong that they could have been made a song of it

Well I do know what your saying Maidenrulez and I agree to a certain extent.
That part in CTTE is "okay" and it does start to drag on. Than when it travels
further in the song and the song picks up again it is very powerful (due to
the previous part.) I wouldn't say that bands try to make parts slow and
boring to explode on another part but I do know that contrasts from soft to
loud are done to enhance certain sections.

As for Supper's Ready, there is the middle, organ-type section ("has been
stamped "human bacon" by some butchery tool"... that whole part) that is
slow, though I don't think it drags on and I don't think it's boring at all. It
depends if the band does it well or not.

FragileDT wrote: Well I do know what your saying Maidenrulez and I agree to a certain extent. That part in CTTE is "okay" and it does start to drag on. Than when it travels further in the song and the song picks up again it is very powerful (due to the previous part.) I wouldn't say that bands try to make parts slow and boring to explode on another part but I do know that contrasts from soft to loud are done to enhance certain sections. As for Supper's Ready, there is the middle, organ-type section ("has been stamped "human bacon" by some butchery tool"... that whole part) that is slow, though I don't think it drags on and I don't think it's boring at all. It depends if the band does it well or not.

Well as said before perhaps not boring but there are parts that are notably weaker that the rest of the song and although i dont think it is done on purpose it is makes a much better effect than if they had putten in a semi-good or even great riff instead

sleeper wrote: I havent heard Frances The Mute but I find the middle of Cicatrize esp VERY boring, an example of how not to do it

Cicatriz ESP is great and one of my favorite songs...when the drums and guitars hits in it just great...afterall the section only lasts for 3 minutes...

You need bits that don't engage you so strongly to enhance the bits that do. An incredible example is KC's Starless. I know you don't like the middle section, but I do and I think the recap of the tune would be so much less dramatic if a couple of minutes were shaved from the weird time signature bit.

goose wrote: You need bits that don't engage you so strongly to enhance the bits that do. An incredible example is KC's Starless. I know you don't like the middle section, but I do and I think the recap of the tune would be so much less dramatic if a couple of minutes were shaved from the weird time signature bit.

It kinda reminds me of the buildup in Cygnus Vismund Cygnus by TMV...however i find this guitar riff far to annoying than to listen to it for another 5 minutes...i think TMV has more dynamic and power in their build-ups and such and yes i know that this part should defiently be there although i think it sounds really awfull and the part after the buildup is kinda messy

But then again i am a real big mars volta fan...so dont listen to me

Oh, and while I see what you mean, I certainly wouldn't call it "bad" music, as if something is bad it means that it lacks compositional skill, while a band who can use contrast to really bring out the climax of a song would have great compositional skill. In every form of art, whether it be literature, music, or painting, there's always one or two vivid, foregrounded images, and then there are other images that aren't as noticeable but serve to bring out the foreground. If you had nothing other than foregrounded images, then as a result nothing would be foregrounded at all.

It's how the artist uses this concept of foreground and background that determines how good he or she is, and you can see this with all the great composers. Just because a section of a piece isn't less emphasized doesn't mean it's "bad;" if it serves a purpose effectively, then it's actually very good.

Biggles wrote: Oh, and while I see what you mean, I certainly wouldn't call it "bad" music, as if something is bad it means that it lacks compositional skill, while a band who can use contrast to really bring out the climax of a song would have great compositional skill. In every form of art, whether it be literature, music, or painting, there's always one or two vivid, foregrounded images, and then there are other images that aren't as noticeable but serve to bring out the foreground. If you had nothing other than foregrounded images, then as a result nothing would be foregrounded at all. It's how the artist uses this concept of foreground and background that determines how good he or she is, and you can see this with all the great composers. Just because a section of a piece isn't less emphasized doesn't mean it's "bad;" if it serves a purpose effectively, then it's actually very good.

Yes i think i have elaborated that i did not think the music was bad...but thread titles are so hard to get accurate when they are so short

Tholomyes wrote: maidenrulez wrote: sleeper wrote: I havent heard Frances The Mute but I find the middle of Cicatrize esp VERY boring, an example of how not to do it Cicatriz ESP is great and one of my favorite songs...when the drums and guitars hits in it just great...afterall the section only lasts for 3 minutes...   That part of Cicatriz ESP sounds very similar to the Echoes' middle part too.

Um....I dont really see the comparison to Echoes as there is a melody that runs throughout but there isnt one in the middle section of cicatrize and this is the sole reason that i dont like it.