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bardberic View Drop Down
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    Posted: October 18 2023 at 23:44


Please be careful out there. There is a lot of propaganda and disinformation floating around. Please use nuance and apply media literacy whenever you read something. Nothing can be trusted or taken face value anymore...

I may make a longer post tomorrow. idk.
idk what to do anymore, or what to say...
i am disappointed...

Edited by bardberic - October 19 2023 at 00:00
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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It is almost impossible to KNOW you're right about any of the big narratives of our time. For each of them there are a number of "counter-narratives", and for each of the competing narratives there are many sources to quote, many debunkings, many confirmations, each of which have their own sets of confirmations or debunkings. A bottomless rabbit hole ...
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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The 'fake news' thing has almost come full circle and people are beginning to watch PBS, BBC and CNN again because the obsessive morons of the 'real news' have started losing all credibility in their unsubstantiated rantings and extremist entertainment.   Last time I saw Joe Rogan he was sitting back in a chair smoking a cigar and laughing about how Trump's property values were undervalued.   Way to go, Joe.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Unfortunately the mainstream media are not automatically vindicated just because a few crackpot conspiracy theorists are shown to be wrong. "The comfort of opinion" indeed ...
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omphaloskepsis View Drop Down
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Most of the news is propaganda. Lies by omission are lies. Truth out of context is a lie.  There are a thousand ways to lie and the media uses all of them.  I don't believe anything the media reports unless they can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.  With each passing day, more people distrust the media.  Fifty percent of Americans believe the media is purposely attempting to mislead them. 

https://fortune.com/2023/02/15/trust-in-media-low-misinform-mislead-biased-republicans-democrats-poll-gallup/


I don't trust the article I posted, because it's media.  That said, my husband just purchased Haken tickets...and that's the truth.Wink


Edited by omphaloskepsis - October 19 2023 at 06:11
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21598 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2023 at 07:01
^ It's not only lies, but also bullsh*t. Turns out there is a difference, and bullsh*t may be worse ...
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

It is almost impossible to KNOW you're right about any of the big narratives of our time. For each of them there are a number of "counter-narratives", and for each of the competing narratives there are many sources to quote, many debunkings, many confirmations, each of which have their own sets of confirmations or debunkings. A bottomless rabbit hole ...



Hi,

There are many ways to know ... but one would be looking at the incorrect place to find an answer, since the spiritual ones that know don't need the internet or your opinion to know what they know and do.

The problem arises even more, when you are not centered enough to know anything, and anything is better than nothing! And this is what the media has become, a nice gimme from the memememe generation!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Apart from lies and bullsh*t, there is also the option that many things look genuinely different from different angles or with a different back story and different experiences in mind. Different people may be convinced by even contradictory "facts" because of that.

Of course manipulation and lies do happen. But in many controversies it also pays off to try our best to understand the position from which the other person is coming, and how they come to the convictions they have, even if we don't agree with them. Disagreeing with arguments still respecting the point of view the other person has is more constructive than accusing them of lying or bullsh*tting.
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omphaloskepsis View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Apart from lies and bullsh*t, there is also the option that many things look genuinely different from different angles or with a different back story and different experiences in mind. Different people may be convinced by even contradictory "facts" because of that.

Of course manipulation and lies do happen. But in many controversies it also pays off to try our best to understand the position from which the other person is coming, and how they come to the convictions they have, even if we don't agree with them. Disagreeing with arguments still respecting the point of view the other person has is more constructive than accusing them of lying or bullsh*tting.

 

True.  What would help?  Critical thinking, logic, statistics, and the scientific method need to be taught, beginning in grammar school and continuing through each layer of the University system.   A greater percentage of the masses could see through the lies.  It's not going to happen.  Dumb downed populations are easy to confuse, fool, and control. Governments don't want a critical-thinking population.  The government likes a population that thinks they are intelligent because they have a college degree.  

Many people confuse a college education with the ability to utilize critical thinking skills.  I know plumbers and electricians who demonstrate better critical thinking skills than college-educated post-graduates. 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - October 19 2023 at 08:41
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Points: 21598 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2023 at 09:19
^ Sometimes understanding a problem does not require higher education at all, but - in addition to common sense and logic 101 - an absence of bias. Unfortunately our human societal structures inevitably lead to problems like group think and tribal/mob mentalities. Something the media apparatus knows how to exploit. The result is a vicious cycle where false beliefs and bogus narratives are amplified, while solitary voices pointing out the problem are ridiculed and ostracised and seen as troublemakers, destroying the comfort of opinion with their insistence on thought.,
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21598 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2023 at 09:40
Found a good quote:

“The propagandist's purpose is to make one set of people forget that certain other sets of people are human.”
(Aldous Huxley)
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Prog-jester View Drop Down
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I love when user says this:
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

I don't believe anything the media reports unless they can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt

and then proceeds to post a 100% propaganda
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

It is almost impossible to KNOW you're right about any of the big narratives of our time
unless you're trusting Scott Ritter of course
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21598 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2023 at 10:05
^ of course you had to go there.
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Prog-jester View Drop Down
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it's just so funny to see you two being so holier-than-thou in this thread, I just can't
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21598 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2023 at 10:42
Well, some of us can even admit mistakes. Let’s leave it at that, goodbye. Will not respond to your trolling ever again.
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Easy Money View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Well, some of us can even admit mistakes. Let’s leave it at that, goodbye. Will not respond to your trolling ever again.

“The propagandist's purpose is to make one set of people forget that certain other sets of people are human.”
(Aldous Huxley)
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21598 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2023 at 11:22
To be clear: I will respond to reasonable questions and comments. I’m not de-humanizing anyone, as far as I can tell.
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omphaloskepsis View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

I love when user says this:
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

I don't believe anything the media reports unless they can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt

and then proceeds to post a 100% propaganda
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

It is almost impossible to KNOW you're right about any of the big narratives of our time
unless you're trusting Scott Ritter of course


Please explain how what I said was propaganda, Progjester. 

1.  I claimed that most media is propaganda.   How was my claim propaganda?  And, who benefits from my statement? 

2. I claimed, "Lies by omission are lies".  How is that propaganda?  
An example of a lie by omission- If I claim that the police mercilessly shot my brother dead, but I neglected to report that my brother had first fired shots at the police.   

3. I claimed that "truth out of context" is a lie  How is that propaganda?  Here is a lie by "truth out of context" using statistics. 
 Suppose an anti-gun group reports that a town's murder rate increased by 300% over a ten-year period.  But they neglect to tell you that only one person was murdered in the first ten years.  And that three were murdered in the next ten years.  In addition, they neglect to tell you that the town's population doubled in the intervening ten-year period.   

 Here's an article describing the art of lying by telling the truth.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20171114-the-disturbing-art-of-lying-by-telling-the-truth

4. I admitted that I don't believe the news unless it's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.  How is that propaganda?   I merely admitted my personal way of viewing the news.  

5. I claimed as time goes by, more people distrust the media.  Do you think my statement is untrue?  If it's a lie then you must believe that as time goes by...more people trust the media.  The second law of thermodynamics suggests that everything is changing.  Therefore the percentage of people believing the media must fluctuate.  It can't stay the same, since everything changes all the time.  Therefore, either more or less people believe the media as time goes by. 

6. I claimed that an article claimed that 50% of Americans think the media deliberately misleads them.  Then I said I did not trust the article, because it was media too.   How was my statement a lie or propaganda?  Wink



I believe all governments use media propaganda.  Russia, China, America, EU...

Progjester, if you believe the governments that you DON'T LIKE exclusively use propaganda then you were fooled by government propaganda from a government you like. 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - October 19 2023 at 12:37
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CosmicVibration View Drop Down
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For propaganda to be truly successful, especially long term, you also need censorship.  Propaganda and censorship are 2 sides of the same coin.  With a high mixture of fear and desperation  you can get people to do anything.
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omphaloskepsis View Drop Down
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Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

For propaganda to be truly successful, especially long term, you also need censorship.  Propaganda and censorship are 2 sides of the same coin.  With a high mixture of fear and desperation  you can get people to do anything.

Excellent point.Wink
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