I Will Not Go Quietly!

You are taking my words in a wrong context Doctor, I know the main concern of the authorities are the Arabs, but even if this sounds paradoxical if you want to respect the civil rights of everyone, you must suspend a determined civil right for everybody, if not this measures turn into illegal and discriminatory.

The Police should check the blond girl next door because she could be another Patty Hearst who felt in love with a terrorist, the black and white executive because they could be black or white fundamentalists, or the readneck because he could also be part of a local terrorist  group of White Supremacy.

Even the blue eyed blonde German tourist could be  a possible suspect because we know there could exist support groups to Al Qaeda in parts of Europe.

Do you believe the Fundamentalists are stupid? If you believe so, you’re even more stupid, they are planning this war for decades. They won’t send people with Moslem clothing and dark skin to blow a train, they will send someone who will generate no suspects, maybe a white guy from the Arian Iran frontier or a black guy that could pass as a rapper or even a person who could be confused with a Latino.

If you want to be fair, everybody must be searched and if not possible the checkouts must be random, but never directed to a certain community because this is xenophobic and highly discriminatory.

It’s sad to turn a Democracy into a Police system, but if Civil Rights are for everybody, the suspension of one or more of this rights must also apply to everybody.

But most important, police must respect the limits of this suspension, searches must be done to find explosives and/or weapons, NOTHING ELSE, this can’t be an excuse to fight criminality under the cover of National Security.

Nothing different to explosives or weapons can be used as evidence in a trial, and even worst, this search must be declared illegal because the object found doesn’t fit into the characteristics of items to search for.

Or for example use the Patriot Act to search for pirate musical Archives in personal computers, this is illegal. The suspension of civil rights is to search for weapons not for songs.

It’s a very complex situation, but I’m sure USA will survive and this war will end some day, until then, there are sacrifices to be made.

stonebeard wrote: ^^^^ as of late that seems to be the case, but white people, and i'm saying this with deep remose for my "race" have most always seen anyone that isn't white as "shifty" or "suspect." I shouldn't be generalizing, but until the civil rights movement in America, we treated black people like sh*t. Even after that we stereotype Latinos and Blacks and Asians. I'm completely beyond that, but remember, there are still clan meetings going on to this day.

I completely understand where you are coming from.  And our race's history in race relations has not been exemplary.  However, when I'm boarding a plane soon after 9/11 and see security harrassing a very young blonde girl next door type, searching her bags and so on for quite a long time, looking for explosives, yet allowing the arab man with the long flowing beard and towel around his head to board without question, I had to ask myself why.  Not only did they allow someone to board the plane who actually looked like he would be capable of hijacking a plane, they harrassed someone who clearly had no such inclination.  Not only is that a dangerous precedent, it's just plain stupid.  I wish the p.c.ers in this country would start to use a little common sense.

But maybe I should be thankful that the p.c. movement is out there protecting us all from the young white girls.

ivan_2068 wrote: For people in USA where Civil Rights and Constitutional protection is the cornerstone of the legal system it’s hard to understand and accept a limitation of the above mentioned rights.   I also understand that for citizens who always felt save from war and terrorism (Since Pearl Harbor no attack has reached USA land until 9/11) it’s almost impossible to understand what the Government must do to protect the LIFE in the case of war on USA floor and you people aren’t willing to sacrifice anything. Well, sadly (I sincerely feel bad for this) war has reached USA and the citizens must learn that one thing is the protection of liberties in peace time and other thing is when you’re under attack.. The prime responsibility of the Government is to protect the life and security even if this means you have to sacrifice some things. Maybe the search without Judicial order will not stop the bombing, but it will help to prevent attacks, and if only one life is saved, the sacrifice is worthy. We have more experience in this case because of almost 20 years with constant terrorists attacks and people protested when some liberties were limited, one of them is that the police without warrant could search any suspicious car. Check Internet and google the phrase “Tarata Street” or “Calle Tarata”  and you’ll see pictures of destroyed buildings and many dead people because of a car full of TNT and Anfo (An agricultural additive that boosts TNT strength 3 or 4 times so that just a trunk of WV full of TNT with Anfo will produce the same effect as a truck loaded with TNT). People say that the search of cars was not effective on that case, but it’s false, the terrorist attack was planned so 4 cars, one in each corner of the block will explode at the same time. Tarata is a not a crowded street in the center of a commercial zone, but the back street is called Avenida Larco (As the Frágil album) with hundred if not thousands of people buying things, in Larco two cars were searched without order and Police found TNT with Anfo, also in the northern corner of Tarata Street another bomb car was found, the last bomb was never found until it exploded. Hundreds of lives were saved that night, because if only one car destroyed  half of a street imagine what 4 cars exploding at the same time (one on each corner) would have caused. It would have been a massacre. Those saved lives justified the sacrifice of  the right of not to be searched without a court order, and I think it’s worth. Then the Government controlled the selling of Anfo, farmers protested, but it was necessary so everybody accepted this. Hard times require of drastic measures. At the end the leader was captured and Terrorism is almost a thing of the past. Many International Courts have justified this measures (at least most of them), so  USA citizens will have to choose between life and some civil rights. And please don’t be so naïve to say that if USA soldiers abandon Iraq the war will end (This doesn’t mean I necessarily agree with Iraq occupation), because  there will be more excuses like the support to Israel or the status of some prisoners or anything else. So I believe that  in emergency cases many unpleasant things must be done by the Government. Iván

Well said Ivan.  And actually, if our people stopped trying to be so politically correct, most of us would lose nothing in the way of rights.  I'm sorry, but whites, african-americans, and hispanics are not going around blowing up subways and flying planes into buildings.  Only those of arab descent are doing that.  To focus solely on those of arab descent, as one commentator put it, would not be racial profiling, it would be identifying the suspect.

For people in USA where Civil Rights and Constitutional protection is the cornerstone of the legal system it’s hard to understand and accept a limitation of the above mentioned rights.

I also understand that for citizens who always felt save from war and terrorism (Since Pearl Harbor no attack has reached USA land until 9/11) it’s almost impossible to understand what the Government must do to protect the LIFE in the case of war on USA floor and you people aren’t willing to sacrifice anything.

Well, sadly (I sincerely feel bad for this) war has reached USA and the citizens must learn that one thing is the protection of liberties in peace time and other thing is when you’re under attack..

The prime responsibility of the Government is to protect the life and security even if this means you have to sacrifice some things.

Maybe the search without Judicial order will not stop the bombing, but it will help to prevent attacks, and if only one life is saved, the sacrifice is worthy.

We have more experience in this case because of almost 20 years with constant terrorists attacks and people protested when some liberties were limited, one of them is that the police without warrant could search any suspicious car.

Check Internet and google the phrase “Tarata Street” or “Calle Tarata”  and you’ll see pictures of destroyed buildings and many dead people because of a car full of TNT and Anfo (An agricultural additive that boosts TNT strength 3 or 4 times so that just a trunk of WV full of TNT with Anfo will produce the same effect as a truck loaded with TNT).

People say that the search of cars was not effective on that case, but it’s false, the terrorist attack was planned so 4 cars, one in each corner of the block will explode at the same time. Tarata is a not a crowded street in the center of a commercial zone, but the back street is called Avenida Larco (As the Frágil album) with hundred if not thousands of people buying things, in Larco two cars were searched without order and Police found TNT with Anfo, also in the northern corner of Tarata Street another bomb car was found, the last bomb was never found until it exploded.

Hundreds of lives were saved that night, because if only one car destroyed  half of a street imagine what 4 cars exploding at the same time (one on each corner) would have caused. It would have been a massacre.

Those saved lives justified the sacrifice of  the right of not to be searched without a court order, and I think it’s worth.

Then the Government controlled the selling of Anfo, farmers protested, but it was necessary so everybody accepted this. Hard times require of drastic measures. At the end the leader was captured and Terrorism is almost a thing of the past.

Many International Courts have justified this measures (at least most of them), so  USA citizens will have to choose between life and some civil rights.

And please don’t be so naïve to say that if USA soldiers abandon Iraq the war will end (This doesn’t mean I necessarily agree with Iraq occupation), because  there will be more excuses like the support to Israel or the status of some prisoners or anything else.

So I believe that  in emergency cases many unpleasant things must be done by the Government.

The Doctor wrote: The problem I have with laws like these is that they will be completely ineffective and very inconvenient.  In the interests of maintaining political correctness and to avoid the appearance of racial profiling, the NYPD will almost never stop and search someone of arab descent.  Instead, they will pick on the teenaged blonde girls (this is something I saw happen at the airport after 9/11..they passed by the Muslim and went for the girl next door), and anyone else who happens to be of any race other than the race we should be watching out for.  Meanwhile the terrorists will be allowed to board the subway trains without any interference from law enforcement.  The only thing this will accomplish is to inconvenience those who would never even consider bombing a subway.

Would it not be simpler to pull out of Irak? As this would probably stop some killing (albeit not all) both in Irak and in the western world. It is clear now that Saddam Hussein , although a bloody tyrant , was a better option than the Bush-created mess. He was never Al-qaeda since his regime was socialist based and atheist also (#2 and #5 Baasists were christians). But Bush wants crude oil as an exchange and in return for US gov't money spent there, Guess in which pocket the crude oil falls , certainly not Clinton or Heinz Ketchup circles.....

stonebeard wrote: are you suggesting that the Republican party is in any way trying to distract us.... HEY!!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE!!!!! **struggles with Republican assasssin**

If the Democrats are republicans,

I am not so sure the Republicans are democrats !

Their will to control everything especially the civil liberties, just to protect a given few's personal interest is definitely very worrying.

Maani:

This brings you back to your post in the 4th of july, doesn't it?

The one that caused a few rattles among the security ladden compatriots.

I have refused to go on mission to the US lately , simply because I find the security measures to get in (and get on board) humiliating and demeaning - imprints , searches and everything.

And NNJFan, your point of view is much closer to 3rd Reich nostalgic than Maani's comparison of police means to arrest somebody who does not accept humiliation by being searched. However police is only doing what the orders are telling them what to do.

The real issue is simply being shunned here: US imperialism. Is it worthy for Americans to get searched twice a day going to work (the NYC subway/busses has no alternative if you have to go to work so the choice of not taking it is not an option) just so a few assholes can get even richer , buy their fifth yacht, have their third private golf course and have finally that solid gold pool filled with mare milk they promised their wives after they shot their mouthes up in the latest garden party in upstate Conneticut.

America , Land Of The Free!

America, I pity thee!

But I also grieve and ache for you.

NetsNJFan wrote: Maani planning an attack? Really you are comparing the NYPD, brave, underpaid citizens who keep our streets safe to the Nazis.  A bit much don't you think? Better they trample a few civil rights which in our society protect criminals more than common folk and try to prevent an attack. If you don't want to get searched, don't ride in the Subways, NYC property, where they have every right to keep things safe.

trying to protect a democracy by abandoning civil rights is not an approach that is going to work. a democracy will self-destroy that way, playing right into the hands of the terrorists. this does by no means mean we are helpless against terrorism though.