9/11

maani wrote: NetsNJFan: Perhaps you are too young to remember (), but it was Sharon who simgle-handedly created the most recent intifada by making a very public (and highly inappropriate) visit to the Temple Mount - the third holiest shrine in Islam - accompanied by members of the Mossad, a personal bodyguard of 18, and over 200 Israeli soldiers.  It was this outrageous act that caused the then-current peace talks to completely break down, and for a period of relative calm to change into a new cycle of Palenstinian suicide bombings and Israeli air strikes. It is true that Sharon seems to have (at least partially) "turned over a new leaf" in some regards.  But he ultimately has only himself to blame for the current mess that the Palestinian-Israeli situation is. Peace.

Maani:

Maybe he has partially turned over a new leaf (now that Arafat is no longer with us!). However, I believe he is very much a war-monger and yes - I agree that he does only have himself to blame for the current Palestinian Israeli situation.

I studied Arab Israeli politics at University some years back and have always had an interest in the Middle Eastern situation. I could and can see arguments for both sides. However, I do not understand why it is so hard to commit to a peace treaty. The only reason apart from those already mentioned in this forum is that "other interested parties" are politically involved to ensure that peace is forstalled - for reasons known only to themselves and as yet unclear to us the observers. That Sharon is a "puppet" to these "parties" is IMO evident, by his "eratic" decision making as regards to committing to a workable peace plan.

I do not condone the blood-shed that occurs on a regular basis between the Israelis and Palestinians. I think they can co-habit peacefully if given a chance. It is their leaders and their political supporters, who are responsible for the continued tensions between both sides.  

Cheers

Damn threads that starts on long WE!!!!

a little fuel to the fire

I was always convinced that this 9/11 thing , although not organized by the presidency , arranged well those who always make conspiracies, both in favour and against the US and always had large shadow areas. Not only did Moore's film Fahrentheit 911 (and he is pro-US and many consider huim the best American alive) pinpoint a few things , but some issues are constantly ignored discarded as ridicule but really asking intelligent questions:

The French Author conspiracy (re: the Pentagon attack) was not even taken seriously by many.

The fourth plane that "crashed" in Pennsylvania (due to heroic resistance) was headed for a stupid power plant  (in my book , that would mean the Congress or Senate)! Yeah Right!! It got shot down not only to prevent another many thousand victims (in 20 years time, this will come out and be seen as a real good decision to shoot it down and legal lawsuits will probably be less since most decision makers will be dead or untouchables) but also to make sure that no hi-jackers would be caught alive. Who knows what those guys could have told? Probably not much or nothing , but was it worth the risk of keeping them alive?

Mostly , what Bush Jr got was a chance to put on a fireman jacket, look like a hero and declare war on third world countries (although Afganistan was by no means without a role , this was not the case of Irak) but really leaving his Saudi friends quiet (ie the only non-military plane allowed to fly over the US was heading for Saudi Arabia) , also knowing that a president during wartime always gets reelected. This was his drive in those wars.

One last thing to infuriate the Republican supporters : They have among their ranks some people who think democracy should be dealt away with and head for a coup. This was most evident , when the four star general almost took the power by force during the shooting of Reagan. I forget his name but was that not a fascist.....

Oh well, have I spilled a few liters of high quality kerosene on this thread to get some real angry responses.

Or will I be completely ignored?!? ......

Blacksword wrote: valravennz wrote: Blacksword wrote: Quotes from Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon, the leader of the only true democracy in the ME, and a proud member of the 'civilized' and 'free' world... ‘It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands’     ‘I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him’   ‘Everybody has to move; run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours. Everything we don't grab will go to them’   ‘Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us, to pull the rug from underneath the feet of the Diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and there, I don't care’   ‘Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it’ ‘A lie should be tried in a place where it will attract the attention of the world’ Blacksword: Before I make a personal comment on these quotes, can you please tell me where you sourced them from? These quotes came directly from here.. http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/ariel_sharon.htm l But I have seem them, and similar ones on all manner of sites from Rense.com to Fox on line over the last 4 years or so. I think the biggest mistake people make when assessing the ME problem, is that they assume they understand whats happening and what its all about. The problem is deep and complex, embroiled in religous fundamentalism on both sides of the fence (or the wall) IMO there is not a solution to the problem. Israel exists in an almost unique Orwellian state of perpetual war, whereby deliberate provocation of the Palestinian people - see Maanis example above - ensures there is always a terrorist threat from Hamas and similar groups. For as long as that threat remains, the US will continue to fund Israels weapons programs in order to preserve the one US friendly democracy in the ME. It's a viscous circle, and it is to Israels distinct advantage that the war continues. Israeli leaders such as Yitsak Rabin, who made real progress towards peace, and engaged the respect of both his own people ans that of the Palestinians, was murdered by right wing Jewish extremists, angry at the concessions made to Arafat. The only people who want peace are the innocent people of Israel and Palestine. Their leaders work to a different and darker agenda. IMO.

Blacksword:

 Many thanks for the url.  I have highlighted above the most poignant part of your reply. (though all of your reply is very good!). A viscious circle of provocation and fear does seem to exist for both sides and I am talking about the governments of these countries versus the ordinary citizens. It disturbs me deeply that religious fundamentalism can create such extremities of idealism of which there seems to be no room for compromise. I will not repeat back what you have written above except to say, your points are very thoughtfully addressed. It would be hard not to see some truth in your comments.

As far as the Sharon quotes are concerned  - it further adds to fire that he is intent on creating, and the belittling of the Palestininans who have as much right to exist in that land - if not more right. Where as Rabin did make some moves towards peace. Sharon appears to be avoiding the issue as much as he can - unless he gets a slap on the hand from the US government. I would hope that citzens of Israel will see throught this farce and elect a leader who will come to the peace table with those intentions in mind. I am sure the Palestinians would be happy to negotiate a solution that will benefit all citizens of the disputed areas of land. We can only hope and pray - it would be better still if the US kept it's nose out this and let these people get on with finding a peaceful solution for a war that has dominated their lives for many decades.

If Britain and Ireland can do it - so can the Israeli and Palestinian governments!

IMO

Cheers 

<Quote> from Blacksword

Israel would be hurt badly by this as they appear to be very nervous at the moment, and according to some sources like this,

http://www.jnewswire.com/library/article.php?articleid=494

they expect war next year. It worries me, what with the UK already withdrawing forces from Iraq, and the US set to do likewise, is the ‘coalition of the willing’ re-grouping for the next chapter in it’s ‘crusade’

<Quote>

I am sure they are - though who the next target specifically is .. could be Palestine/Israel, Syria or further south into the reaches of Zimbabwe - I wish especially for the latter. No doubt we will learn in time.

Great post Trane!

i've nothing to add....

You're an asshole, Chantraine!

I will leave this forum because of your offensive post  

Better?

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Much Better!!!!!

Thanks guys!

Psssst Nacho , we were under Spanish rule from the 16th to almost the end of 18th century! How's that for heavenly punishment?

I recently found out that

I HAVE THE SAME DENTIST AS BALKENENDE!