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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: February 17 2005 at 04:54 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
Please, where in the hell is that perfect Utopia? When will it come? More than 200 years have passed since Marx and Engels wrote their books and still there is not a perfect socialist nation.So what? Name a perfect nation of any description! |
Ok Reed, not one of us has said that democracy is perfect, we know it has evident flaws, but it works in most rich countries. In poor countries doesn't work so well, but we lived sovcialist governments and believe me, they are worst.
You learn this kind of things with experience, not with theory, I've been there and I can assure you the country went to hell with Velazco
I LOVE THIS LINE!!! (Although the communist manifesto was written 1847, putting it more in the 150 year range) Try and think for yourself lad.The "line" as you call it is irrelevant.You might as well say "people have been making music for thousands of years-so where is that perfect piece" Utter twaddle!! |
Please Reed I always respect your opinions even if I don't agree, and I know you're too intelligent to really believe this crap, you can't compare a form of art where all the results and opinions are purely subjective with a political system that can be perfectly evaluated with economic and statistic weapons.
For me the perfect piece is The Musical Box, if I had to stand before a judge I would honestly swear it's the perfect musical piece, probably Sweetnighter will also swear it's Close to the Edge and maybe the Judge will believe Strangers in the Night or any Frank Siinatra song is the perfect piece of music. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY SUBJECTIVE.
If we talk about political systems we can measure:
- Improvement in economy
- Improvement in health services
- Improvement in Human Rights
- How many political prissoners has Cuba
- How many people killed Pol Pot or Stalin
- How Velazco left Peruvian Economy
- How many countries have abandoned communism/socialism
- How many rafters reach the shores of USA every year from the socialist paradise
- How many countries believe in democracy and free market
- How many communist/socialist leaders become dictators
So don't compare two issues that are totally different.
Iván
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We are not fighting an election here, Ivan.It is perfectly reasonable in this kind of discussion (where nothing is at stake except egos) to use comparisons not associated with the subject being discussed.
Addressing points 1,2,3,7:
These are things normally associated with our labour party(socialist) in the Uk and socialist governments throughout Europe!.
Addressing 4,5,8,10
Irrelevant-Pol Pot and Stalin were maniacs and would have done the same thing regardless of their political persuasion.Cuba's human rights record is bad-so is USA's. 10-how many dont-the vast majority imo.
9.Are all the citizens of these countries treated fairly and equitably? No.
6.South American politics are not my forte and it seems to me that political upheaval is the norm there.Are you suggesting that Velazo is the same as Tony Blair or Bill Clinton?
You are using only the worst examples to prove your point-so yes,your argument is very subjective.
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JrKASperov
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 07 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 904
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Posted: February 17 2005 at 05:50 |
Music CAN be rated objectively, and about what was said:
For
me the perfect piece is The Musical Box, if I had to stand before a
judge I would honestly swear it's the perfect musical piece, probably
Sweetnighter will also swear it's Close to the Edge and maybe the Judge
will believe Strangers in the Night or any Frank Siinatra song is the
perfect piece of music. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY SUBJECTIVE.
They think that would be the music part that they LIKE MOST. However, this is different from being the best musical piece!
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Epic.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: February 17 2005 at 10:54 |
Why JKASpérov? I believe Musical Box is the perfect piece of music, nobody can say if I'm right or wrong, that's why ot's sujective.
I believe the structure that goes in cressendo until the final explosion is perfect, so the lyrics, the arrangements and the lyrics.
Who can say I'm wrong? In the same way I can't say somebody who thinks Gates of Delirium is perfect can be wrong.
Music is an art, no standardt methods of eveluation can be used without some amount of subjectivity.
Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: February 17 2005 at 11:01 |
Addressing points 1,2,3,7:
These are things normally associated with our labour party(socialist) in the Uk and socialist governments throughout Europe!.
So are associated with the Social Christian Party of my country and all around theworld.
Addressing 4,5,8,10
Irrelevant-Pol Pot and Stalin were maniacs and would have done the same thing regardless of their political persuasion.Cuba's human rights record is bad-so is USA's. 10-how many dont-the vast majority imo.
I'm only proving youthat until tooday there's no Communist/Socialist perfect state, not even close to perfection.
9.Are all the citizens of these countries treated fairly and equitably? No.
No, but in the Socialist Paradises the treatment is even worst, the problem is that Amnesty International and the Civil Roghts Associations are left oriented and are very bland with the Socialist/Communist countries.
6.South American politics are not my forte and it seems to me that political upheaval is the norm there.Are you suggesting that Velazo is the same as Tony Blair or Bill Clinton?
Never, Velazco send our country 50 years to the past, he banned the englishteaching in the schools, prohibited Rock & Roll, went against Religion freedom, destroyed our agriculture, Industry, Fishing Industry and media, but the way he was a socialist.
You are using only the worst examples to prove your point-so yes,your argument is very subjective.
Why, because ypou don't like them?
Iván
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Joren
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 07 2004
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 6667
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Posted: February 17 2005 at 12:17 |
JrKASperov wrote:
Music CAN be rated objectively, and about what was said:
For me the perfect piece is The Musical Box, if I had to stand before a judge I would honestly swear it's the perfect musical piece, probably Sweetnighter will also swear it's Close to the Edge and maybe the Judge will believe Strangers in the Night or any Frank Siinatra song is the perfect piece of music. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY SUBJECTIVE.
They think that would be the music part that they LIKE MOST. However, this is different from being the best musical piece!
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There is no such thing as the best musical piece
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Points: 19557
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Posted: February 17 2005 at 14:22 |
Joren wrote:
There is no such thing as the best musical piece |
Prove it!!!
Iván
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JrKASperov
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 07 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 904
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Posted: February 17 2005 at 16:35 |
Now again, you only take a few things about the Musical Box and say
because of that, it's the best. That is simply faulty logic. You have
to look at everything. Originality, virtuosity, intelligence in
composition, evolution, using odd time signatures or not, blending
different layers from the various instruments into the music. Now these
are all hardly to be argued about, and thus MUSICALLY things can be
better or worse. You simply say what you LIKE best and confuse it for
what IS best musically, this is faulty. (as a side note, saying music is purely subjective is accepting Britney Spears as possibly GOOD MUSIC )
Joren: There is a thing as the best piece of music, although we don't
probably know it because we cannot compare everything with everything.
Therefore, you cóuld say there is not a 'best' piece of music, based on
our lack of knowledge in that area, but there is some piece somewhere,
that rates the highest in all musical categories.
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Epic.
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asuma
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 23 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 230
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Posted: February 17 2005 at 17:01 |
i'm a pretty left wing guy. i'm a member of what brits might know as the S.W.P.. in Canada it's called the I.S.
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*Remember all advice given by Asuma is for entertainment purposes only. Asuma is not a licensed medical doctor, psychologist, or counselor and he does not play one on TV.*
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: February 17 2005 at 17:58 |
Now again, you only take a few things about the Musical Box and say because of that, it's the best. That is simply faulty logic. You have to look at everything. Originality, virtuosity, intelligence in composition, evolution, using odd time signatures or not, blending different layers from the various instruments into the music. Now these are all hardly to be argued about, and thus MUSICALLY things can be better or worse. You simply say what you LIKE best and confuse it for what IS best musically, this is faulty. (as a side note, saying music is purely subjective is accepting Britney Spears as possibly GOOD MUSIC )
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That's what I wanted to listen Asuma!!!!
I don't believe The Musical Box is the perfect song necesarilly, my point is that artistic issues are MORE subjective as any artistic form, not purely but have a large component of taste, political sciences are more objective.
Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
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Posted: February 19 2005 at 00:32 |
This is really tangent, but appropriate to this thread.
I recently got IQ's Dark Matter, their 2004 release. In the second
section of "Harvest of Souls", there is some Anti-American political
commentary. For those who have the record, what do you think of this?
Here's the segment:
The sky lights up above America
The world is lost but loves America
When the eyes of children see the ones left standing
Then the rest begin to finally understand
The hand of god defends America
And who would not defend America?
We've got right on our side, we're in the pole position
So praise the Lord and raise the ammunition high
Raise it high
Hide where you can
We will shoot you where you stand
Personally, as an American I find this section a little agitating, but
I believe that the band has the right to voice its opinion. Would
anybody argue that the whole song has a running theme of
Anti-Americanism? Haven't listened enough to it yet to say myself if
this is true or not.
I know there's a similar discussion about this in the featured CD
section but I wanted to have a conversation focused more on this part
of the album instead of the entire album.
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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James Lee
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3525
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Posted: February 19 2005 at 15:39 |
What is it actually saying? As protest songs go, it seems a little weak and vague.
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: February 19 2005 at 15:53 |
Having listened to the track in its entirety, I think IQ are presenting the dramatic swing in international opinions about America post 9/11. There was a tremendous outpouring of sympathy and support that transcended national and ideological boundaries - remember the headline 'Aujourd'hui nous sommes tous Americains'? As the US military/industrial complex flexed its muscles and the nature of the US response became clear, this became replaced by a widespread (though not universal) unease, which persists to this day. I think IQs lyric captures this neatly.
The implication that this is anti American probably stems from the current president's reduction of complex international issues to a Manichean 'You're either for us, or against us'. It is possible, as many including IQ have done, to be critical of the present administration and its policies while still having a profound respect for America and the American culture and people. After all, if Rock and Roll hadn't been invented, this forum would not exist.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
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Posted: February 19 2005 at 18:18 |
James Lee wrote:
What is it actually saying? As protest songs go, it seems a little weak and vague. |
It seems to me its more of a criticism of American conservatism than American culture.
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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