1973

JrKASperov wrote: But... WHY?!?!   Genesis is so... weak...

It depends on what you consider strengths to be in music.

"Selling England..." is simply one of the greatest albums of all time - let alone one of the greatest prog albums.

Melodically (as a single example), it is extremely strong and rich.

Some other good albums not mentioned in the poll or subsequent posts, that were released in 1973 and I also like:

GREENSLADE - s/t

RICK WAKEMAN - The Six Wives Of Henry VIII

MIKE OLDFIELD - Tubular Bells

EDIT/Whoops, just seen that Vegetableman mentioned Tubular Bells.

Certif1ed wrote: JrKASperov wrote: But... WHY?!?!   Genesis is so... weak... Melodically (as a single example), it is extremely strong and rich.

Not so. Their songs have got a meldoy that may be catchy, but that's it, no intricate backing by bass, let alone Collin's drums. It sounds empty, there is nothing to be found but the melody and the vocals. You can in no way drool over what P&M accomplish in the backrows. They have their moments, but that is seldom so. To be honest, I've only found that in Supper's Ready and CanUtility.

I would vote for Genesis - Selling England as it's my favourite Genesis album...with the beautiful Cinema Show...I know what i like etc..a superb album!

What a year for albums..the outstanding  Brain Salad Surgery...Camel...larks tongue..and Dark side...

Certif1ed wrote: Yes, it is so The bass is not intricate - but it doesn't need to be; it needs to be solid for most of Genesis' material, and Rutherford does that more than admirably. As for drums - are you barking? Collins' drums are beautifully intricate! Also, you neglect to acknowledge the wondrousness of Bank's keyboards - Firth of Fifth is unarguably sublime, and everywhere else, the keyboards are used sensitively and in a beautifully understated way. This is pure genius - the hallmark of "less is more". The same goes for Hackett's guitar work - you miss the point, in that you fail to see the delicate intricateness of the textures in your vain search for blunt in-your-facedness - which would be ugly supporting Peter's vocals. Finally (for now), you miss the pure free-flowing improvised feel of the music in the harmonic progresssions - there is nothing simple there; it is all deceptive, and meant to be. This is not music for those who require everything to be spelt out, this is music for people with a high degree of appreciation especially for variety and guile.

-Chris Squire does make it intricate (like on Heart of the Sunrise), and it immediately sounds 10 times as good.

-No, Phil does NOT drum intricately here, I've not only have me decide that, but laid that problem before a few people, all far from unknown in music. Listen to his work on Brand X to know the difference.

-Yes, the keyboards and guitars are nice, but that just doesn't cut it. They still make the song feel empty by not having a solid backing, which was my original point.

Again, in general, I feel your need to put me down as an unknowing person, as you immediately take it I search for  'blunt in-your-facedness'. I wonder why this must be so? I have not even addressed Peter's voice...Maybe you do have a feel of a higher position because you are learned? (this is not an attack but I simply WONDER why you do make it seem so)

It sounds like improvising music indeed, your analysis of that is true, what I argue, however, is that it sounds empty, and unfinished, as if P&M had not the technical capabilities to improvise adequately here. vdGG do make their music deceptively easy sounding, and I wrote that in my review of Godbluff, so I DO listen closely.

Furthermore, I'd like to add to this that my point is that Genesis is nice and all, but it is far from THE BEST. Bands that DO add intricate bass, drums and keyboards like YES, KING CRIMSON and VDGG do such a good job at this that it fits in! Especially Bruford, I have applauded his works many times. Theya re simply better because of this, and that is why i don't accept Genesis having such a lead here.

JrKASperov wrote: [QUOTE=Certif1ed]Yes, it is so Furthermore, I'd like to add to this that my point is that Genesis is nice and all, but it is far from THE BEST. Bands that DO add intricate bass, drums and keyboards like YES, KING CRIMSON and VDGG do such a good job at this that it fits in! Especially Bruford, I have applauded his works many times. Theya re simply better because of this, and that is why i don't accept Genesis having such a lead here.

That is YOUR opinion.  Obviously there are a lot of people who disagree. I am one of them. I like Genesis better because of the understated nature of their music. It grows on you and you start to get it.  THen you start to hear how difficult those passages really are.

If YOU don't get it you don't but to say you don't accept them having a lead here or anywhere else I presume is not allowing for the fact that others disagree.  I cannot really listen to Yes anymore. I think they have aged badly and I just really don't get it.  I mean they are all fine musicians and they all have talent but outside of a few things I just don't get it and never really did. Now that is my opinion. I don't expect yours or anyone else to be the same.

JrKASperov wrote: It has less to do with opinion than with more accomplishment within the music. Genesis simply stops somewhere with making it more intricate and complex, still fitting into the music. Like Yes did on Fragile, like VDGG did on Pawn Hearts, like King Crimson did on almost all of their albums, etc. We cannot go around saying:'oh you don't like that but that's merely an opinion' I give arguments discussing the music itself, and why, musically, other bands are simply better. Now, to MY OPINION, music SHOULD be rated according to how GOOD they are musically, since we get horse loads of crap on tv, on radio, and lately increasingly, on this forum. Instead of arguing about 'how you don't understand it'  or how 'I don't understand it',honestly things we cannot say ANYTHING about, since we don't know what is EXACTLY going on in other people's heads, I give arguments why it musically is not good. I do not bother to tell you you don't understand, maybe, and probably, you do, else you wouldn't be here in the first place. (excepting that you could be some sort of freakish fan, liking the bands for something outside the music) I am a bassist, I have played for merely 5 years, and now, I think Genesis bass parts are NOTHING. Doesn't that say anything? Doesn't it say anything I get bored playing their parts because actually, I'm not DOING enough? I have studied the drumworks on many bands as well, and can dabble around a bit on drums, and honestly, I CAN compare a few drummers. Collins on Genesis fades to nothing when compared to his Brand X work.

If you have that naive opinion of Mike Rutherford’s ability then maybe you should try playing a 12 string guitar while doing the bass lines on moog pedals like Michael Rutherford did on many,many  songs.  Did you ever see Mike Rutherford play in the 70's? I did several times. He does a lot more than you know. Listen to the Rriding the Scree from The Lamb.  That is just Mike, Tony and Phil. Pretty damn full sound to me. Chris Squire is very good I saw him twice also but he does not do more than MR.  I am not trying to compare each of thier abilities.

 I have played piano for 28 years so I know a thing or two about what is good and what is not.  Don’t be fooled, most of the people who post here play something and have a good understanding of music. I do not feel your opinion is more qualified to mine in any way shape or form.

Keith Emerson is my favorite pianist to listen to.  But Art Tatum is superior technically. Does that make my enjoyment of Emerson less?  Is that what your argument is or is because YOU say he is better that makes it better?

Ahh, but here you are discussing how well he can play. Something that I am not discussing. Sure he can do a lot, and I'm sure he's good at it, just like Phil is.

Why don't they use it in their songs then? THAT is my concern. They can play, but the basslines on Genesis' work are still empty and sleepinducing, even when I play it. i will listen to RtS when I get that Lamb cd back onder my fingers. I hope it will be as you say.

I'm not arguing about what is better and what people like. I'm arguing about how it should be judged. You say Art Tatum is superior. Then he is better, and should be rated as BEST pianist.

Ahh, I see what I have done. I have mistakenly took this poll for a BEST poll. My excuses  

I still wonder why people like less superior music better anyway. Isn't it better and thus more to listen to and thus more enjoyment? That's how I experience it. I know this not to be the case with everyone, but I wonder

JrKASperov,

You have a chance to see this still.  I don't how far away you are From  Enschede but if it is close enoough on Sunday the 13th a Genesis tribute band is playing. Here is there web site.  They are fantastic.  They are not a cover or copy band.  They recreate the concert as it was in 1975 this time it is The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I saw this show in Decemeber and it is stunning.  There is much said about them in the concert reivew thread here.  Anyway if you are curious go see it.

http://www.themusicalbox.net/

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1615&a mp;PN=1

JrKASperov wrote: Sorry mate, I am occupied with University and having a hangover on that day Actually, I do think of Jazz as one of the best forms of music. But ofcourse, there is more to jazz than playing faster. If yu say Art Tatum can't create atmosphere because he can't hold notes and chords, then to me, he is a worse musician. I did not know that. Let me take as example mister Bruford, again. He plays fast, alternating beats, like on South Side of the Sky's bridge part with piano, he is BETTER than Phil Collins. He does that throughout his career, with crimson, Earthworks, Yes and whatnot. That is my point.

Cool, but if you ever get a chance to see that group go do it. You will see and hear better than I can ever write about Mike Rutherford.  The only point I am trying to make about Mike Rutherford is many parts of his did not call for him to be using a bass. Twelve string and bass pedals. 

 Jazz is great and my son who is learning the bass I gave Jaco Pastorious for the Jazz.  But I also gave him Jack Cassidy because you can be good according to the style you play.  Jack Cassidy is a blues bassed bass player and one of the best that ever lived in that style. 

Art Tatum played a stride piano type in the day that you would take a standard and sit down and improvise.  Quite good for that and like I said fastest left hand I have ever heard. But I don't always just want riffs and his tempos are always upbeat. I can only take that so long.  I like big melodies that are created by multiple insturments and moods created by various tempos.  Not all orchestral music is fast riff orientated stuff.   I like stuff by Keith on piano like Closer to Home off the Black Mood CD.  He uses the fast scales and runs around a nice soft theme. It really is quite effective.  That can also be applied to band music too with great effect.

AS for Bill Bruford he is excelent and got to see both Phil and Bill play with Genesis on A Trick of the Tale tour in 1976.    I also saw him in UK.