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Reed Lover 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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 Posted: February 05 2005 at 06:16 |
 James Lee wrote:
The evolution of a species able to reflect on its own meaning and purpose was most likely a mistake. Philosophy and theology are both facets of man's search for ultimate truth- a pastime as necessary and hopeful for us as a moth's desire for light and warmth.
Still, the moths seem to manage; I haven't heard of a big reduction in their numbers since their furry-winged prophets heard that first lightbulb filament sizzle...perhaps they simply continue to reproduce sufficiently to afford the loss of those on the quest for illumination.
I only pursued degrees in the field because of my Catholic dedication to self-torture, and a spiteful desire to make myself useless to society. 
The deepest, truest mysteries aren't happy things, folks. Luckily, they're not easy things to track down- you have to listen closely to conversations for the things people don't want to talk about and then figure out why. When we're closest to truth we're usually in the midst of tragedy. Few people have any ability to communicate it, or even to understand it on any sort of rational level (another reason why music and poetry are so important). I have real, fundamental answers that I could never explain to anyone else, even if I wanted to. Sound like a cop out? Sure it does. That's one way that truth continues to get you...by making you doubt the warnings of the people who have 'been there'. ("He stoppeth one of three...")
Philosophy and religion typically try to conceal or avoid the truth rather than make it better known.
Philosophy gives us complicated word games, elaborate logical structures that define and compartmentalize and send our thoughts whirling in pretty patterns. When Mathematics goes to the wrong side of town and has a one-night stand with Poetry, the illegitimate child is Philosophy. And we all know how likely those kinds of children are to grow up healthy and well-disposed. We're about as likely to find truth through Philosophy as we are to find nature by watching "Bambi".
Theology, on the other hand, is a keen sense of sight focused on something just out of view. Without knowing the details of what it sees, it uses the best of its ability to fill in the details. Once you know what you're looking for, it's far easier to see it (just ask the folks who have never met but agree on the description of the aliens that abducted them). Religion convinces itself that it already knows the answers, and the focus is on our relationship with those answers.
Religion works where philosophy doesn't simply because you can talk in religious terms to anyone, especially a child. No parent has ever used Plato to explain a rainbow. Children have as much susceptibility to religion as they do to colds and peer presure. When you're in the womb, you already have a God...and She's physically connected to you, providing you with everything you need (and no fetus has ever bothered to ask why). Sooner or later, you're cast out of this Ovarian Eden, and no angel with a flaming sword is necessary to convince you that you can never, ever return to that blessed state. So to make up for it, you have (if you're lucky) twin gods to look out for you for a while. It's not such a big step to transfer those feelings to something "up there" who watches lovingly or judgingly over you. Every religion ever practiced uses "Father" and "Mother" to refer to its deities...isn't that a bit of a giveaway?
Philosophy and religion are as ultimately pointless as anything else we've created. Can we find meaning in them anyway? Absolutely...but it will just be a passing truth that serves its purpose until we no longer need it. Unlike truth, we can find meaning in anything if we look hard enough. Same goes for meaninglessness. I highly recommend finding meaning in eating, drinking, breathing, screwing, and pooping. Also sneezing, farting, and the hiccups. You're gonna do them anyway- no sense leaving them out as so many religions and philosophies have done before.
What's really nice is if this meaning ends up including ways to make other people happier. An inappropriate belch is sometimes just the thing to bring a smile. An atheist who listens to a friend's problems is worth more than a million preoccupied zealots...but the inspiration for a single hymn of beauty justifies a religion.
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Wow, welcome back!!
We, indeed, are not worthy James. I for one doff my cap to you.
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: February 05 2005 at 06:45 |
Kool Prog Guruz/Rob The Plant makes a perfectly valid point about the bible.Similar to the one I have been banging on about in another thread.The Bible deals in grand themes described in a simplistic way. The Christian/Jewish Establishment does nothing to clarify these over-simplifications for "the ordinary man on the street." One has to really wonder about this.There is an incredibly wide gulf between what is "known/accepted" by the Higher Academic departments at say, The Vatican and what is accepted by ordinary practising Catholics.
As James so eloquently puts in his post:
"Philosophy and religion typically try to conceal or avoid the truth rather than make it better known."
Addressing Maani's point about life elsewhere in The Universe:
I too believe there is life all over the Universe,but just because mathematically it seems probable does not make it certain.Try covering 30 numbers on a Roulette Wheel and you'll find out that probability can be impossibly difficult to predict.
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator
Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632
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Posted: February 05 2005 at 15:18 |
James:
You say, "Every religion ever practiced uses "Father" and "Mother" to refer to its deities...isn't that a bit of a giveaway?" Ummm...not quite, for two reasons.
First of all, let's not forget that the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and others referred to their Gods with names - none were called "father" or "mother."
Second, human beings can only express "ideas" in terms they can understand, and that those with whom they are interacting can understand. Thus, it is obvious that any monotheistic religion is going to call its deity "father" or "mother," since those are easily graspable words. In this regard, you are sort of "putting the cart before the horse" by referring to it as a "give-away."
Peace.
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James Lee
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3525
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Posted: February 05 2005 at 16:26 |
maani wrote:
James:
You say, "Every religion ever practiced uses "Father" and "Mother" to refer to its deities...isn't that a bit of a giveaway?" Ummm...not quite, for two reasons.
First of all, let's not forget that the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and others referred to their Gods with names - none were called "father" or "mother."
Second, human beings can only express "ideas" in terms they can understand, and that those with whom they are interacting can understand. Thus, it is obvious that any monotheistic religion is going to call its deity "father" or "mother," since those are easily graspable words. In this regard, you are sort of "putting the cart before the horse" by referring to it as a "give-away."
Peace.
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maani, I'm surprised at you! Greek mythology is full of parental imagery and themes. Sure, in a polytheistic religion it's not always as obvious as in monotheistic ones (except of course for "Odin, the All-Father"- I notice you didn't include the Norse  ), but the entire storyline of the Greek Mythos revolves around familial relationships and especially the son usurping the father. Prior to the worship of the Gods which became the Titans (whose fall is a clear metaphor for generational overthrow), the Greeks based their religion around Gaia, almost always referred to as the "Earth Mother".
And as for Egypt, there is Atum (like Odin, known as the "All-Father") and Anat and Tatenen ("Mother" and "Father" of the Gods, repectively). While the lineage and geneology of polytheistic pantheons are by nature much more complex and intertwined than monothesim, this actually creates more situations where the character and destiny of the mythological individuals revolves around the circumstances of birth and family.
I would counter, with all respect and courtesy, that defining deities in terms of fatherhood and motherhood is a function not of our limited understanding of the essential nature of godhood but rather of our development from reliance on our parents. The explanation of God as something more than an idealized parent only develops as a more complex understanding of the world is desired. I could just as easily say that you are putting the 'cart before the horse'.
I find it immensely fascinating that religion becomes more 'streamlined' as society progresses, rather than the reverse. For many people, especially in the third world, Christianity is pretty much a polytheistic religion; it's generally only the more individual-oriented societies that extract the supreme god from the collective. The parables and themes of polythestic mythologies are almost more applicable to our daily lives as those of the Judeo-Christian texts. However, they have a more specific nature that makes them less malleable to differing interpretations (one of the strengths of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam; the words can always be used to support the current cultural and political power).
Well, I guess I'm back now, huh?
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20268
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Posted: February 08 2005 at 03:56 |
Maani Wrote:
Actually, no less a distinguished and respected person than Carl Sagan suggested exactly the opposite: that it is impossible for there NOT to be life on other planets - though what form(s) that life takes might be very different from life here. He used straightforward statistics to point out that there are billions of stars in each galaxy, most of which have at least one planet or other celestial body in orbit around it. And there are billions of such galaxies in the universe. Thus, as Sagan suggests, it is not just the height of arrogance, but mathematically unsound to suggest that we are the only life in the universe - or, indeed, the only "intelligent" life in the universe.
By no means did I mean that our planet was the only life existing in the universe.... It is so weird that how life evolved to be the way it has turned out to be on Earth, that the chances of a planet being able to host a life are so small and that the conditions stable enough to have it evolve to a degree of sophistication such as our would take an odd so great that it is almost impossible that it exist.
Who Knows? There might be a mineral life out on one or Orion's planet (if that star is able to have planet and let alone ones that are solid and not gaseous). But that this one has managed to evolve and change galaxies abooard spaceships....... not likely.....no points in taking a bet....
PS: If you could tell me about how to frame a quote because my sort of life evolving has not managed to grasp that one yet....
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the musical box
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 01 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 436
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Posted: February 08 2005 at 09:45 |
I believe in a world called "Progarchives":
Our God Maani is always there for us, keeping our thoughts in check, our morals in line, and of course as any good god does: he sets bounderies.
We here are all followers of the righteous king Danbo (take a bow mate ) and are an advanced reace of opiniated chaps out to spread the good word of "Prog". We are constantly spreading on our faith to others, and act with violence when folk dont accept our ideals. Our only goal is to spread the divine word of Maani and his message of progress, of deviation from the norm. Our members are proud of their befiefs, and although they may be different, they are the cream of humanity! Some of our group include:
The Obssesed maniacs: Rob The Plant, ThreeFates, Reed Lover
The Genesis Freaks: Ivan, Ceasar Inca, Peter, Hangedman, The Musical Box
The Village Idiots: VelvetClown, The Oracle, K00l Prog Guruz
The Master Debaters: Certif1ed, Danbo, Jim Garten, James Lee, Garion, Dick Heath, Mr. Peter Rideout (although hes on an "extended" hiadus) and countless others...
.........: Gdub.......Sigod...the umm..."special ones"
The Dudes: Sweetnighter, Joren, Radioactive Toy, Metropolis
The Cute Girls: Selling_ Echoes, Shrinking Violet
The "Looker": Jim Prog Wizard (refer to page 5 of the picture thread..sorry man)
AND EVERYONE ELSE
(im out of time)...god this was a stupid idea
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something pretentious
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sigod
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 17 2004
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
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Posted: February 08 2005 at 10:55 |
the musical box wrote:
I believe in a world called "Progarchives":
Our God Maani is always there for us, keeping our thoughts in check,
our morals in line, and of course as any good god does: he sets
bounderies.
We here are all followers of the righteous king Danbo (take a bow mate)
and are an advanced reace of opiniated chaps out to spread the good
word of "Prog". We are constantly spreading on our faith to others, and
act with violence when folk dont accept our ideals. Our only goal is to
spread the divine word of Maani and his message of progress, of
deviation from the norm. Our members are proud of their befiefs, and
although they may be different, they are the cream of humanity! Some of
our group include:
The Obssesed maniacs: Rob The Plant, ThreeFates, Reed Lover
The Genesis Freaks: Ivan, Ceasar Inca, Peter, Hangedman, The Musical Box
The Village Idiots: VelvetClown, The Oracle, K00l Prog Guruz
The Master Debaters: Certif1ed, Danbo, Jim Garten, James Lee,
Garion, Dick Heath, Mr. Peter Rideout (although hes on an "extended"
hiadus) and countless others...
.........: Gdub.......Sigod...the umm..."special ones"
The Dudes: Sweetnighter, Joren, Radioactive Toy, Metropolis
The Cute Girls: Selling_ Echoes, Shrinking Violet
The "Looker": Jim Prog Wizard (refer to page 5 of the picture thread..sorry man)
AND EVERYONE ELSE
(im out of time)...god this was a stupid idea |
Hooray! I'm specia....................(thinks hard)...........................hey!!!!!
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I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
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JrKASperov
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 07 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 904
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Posted: February 08 2005 at 13:11 |
I want to be one of the cute girls 
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Epic.
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Velvetclown
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 8548
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Posted: February 08 2005 at 13:24 |
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JrKASperov
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 07 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 904
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Posted: February 08 2005 at 14:31 |
She's not cute 
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Epic.
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator
Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632
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Posted: February 08 2005 at 22:56 |
TMB:
Thanks....I think (?).
Actually, it might be more accurate to compare me to Einstein. He said that the universe has boundaries, but no limits. Using my "god-like" powers, I make sure that ProgArchives is like the universe in that way...
Peace.
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Dan Bobrowski
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5243
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Posted: February 08 2005 at 23:31 |
James Lee wrote:
The evolution of a species able to reflect on its own meaning and purpose was most likely a mistake. Philosophy and theology are both facets of man's search for ultimate truth- a pastime as necessary and hopeful for us as a moth's desire for light and warmth.
Still, the moths seem to manage; I haven't heard of a big reduction in their numbers since their furry-winged prophets heard that first lightbulb filament sizzle...perhaps they simply continue to reproduce sufficiently to afford the loss of those on the quest for illumination.
I only pursued degrees in the field because of my Catholic dedication to self-torture, and a spiteful desire to make myself useless to society.
The deepest, truest mysteries aren't happy things, folks. Luckily, they're not easy things to track down- you have to listen closely to conversations for the things people don't want to talk about and then figure out why. When we're closest to truth we're usually in the midst of tragedy. Few people have any ability to communicate it, or even to understand it on any sort of rational level (another reason why music and poetry are so important). I have real, fundamental answers that I could never explain to anyone else, even if I wanted to. Sound like a cop out? Sure it does. That's one way that truth continues to get you...by making you doubt the warnings of the people who have 'been there'. ("He stoppeth one of three...")
Philosophy and religion typically try to conceal or avoid the truth rather than make it better known.
Philosophy gives us complicated word games, elaborate logical structures that define and compartmentalize and send our thoughts whirling in pretty patterns. When Mathematics goes to the wrong side of town and has a one-night stand with Poetry, the illegitimate child is Philosophy. And we all know how likely those kinds of children are to grow up healthy and well-disposed. We're about as likely to find truth through Philosophy as we are to find nature by watching "Bambi".
Theology, on the other hand, is a keen sense of sight focused on something just out of view. Without knowing the details of what it sees, it uses the best of its ability to fill in the details. Once you know what you're looking for, it's far easier to see it (just ask the folks who have never met but agree on the description of the aliens that abducted them). Religion convinces itself that it already knows the answers, and the focus is on our relationship with those answers.
Religion works where philosophy doesn't simply because you can talk in religious terms to anyone, especially a child. No parent has ever used Plato to explain a rainbow. Children have as much susceptibility to religion as they do to colds and peer presure. When you're in the womb, you already have a God...and She's physically connected to you, providing you with everything you need (and no fetus has ever bothered to ask why). Sooner or later, you're cast out of this Ovarian Eden, and no angel with a flaming sword is necessary to convince you that you can never, ever return to that blessed state. So to make up for it, you have (if you're lucky) twin gods to look out for you for a while. It's not such a big step to transfer those feelings to something "up there" who watches lovingly or judgingly over you. Every religion ever practiced uses "Father" and "Mother" to refer to its deities...isn't that a bit of a giveaway?
Philosophy and religion are as ultimately pointless as anything else we've created. Can we find meaning in them anyway? Absolutely...but it will just be a passing truth that serves its purpose until we no longer need it. Unlike truth, we can find meaning in anything if we look hard enough. Same goes for meaninglessness. I highly recommend finding meaning in eating, drinking, breathing, screwing, and pooping. Also sneezing, farting, and the hiccups. You're gonna do them anyway- no sense leaving them out as so many religions and philosophies have done before.
What's really nice is if this meaning ends up including ways to make other people happier. An inappropriate belch is sometimes just the thing to bring a smile. An atheist who listens to a friend's problems is worth more than a million preoccupied zealots...but the inspiration for a single hymn of beauty justifies a religion.
I'm done (thank god!). I have to go take a holy crap and then make sure my furry angels have enough food and water.
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Welcome back, brother. I missed you. Try to make Cal-Prog, eh? You, me and Garion could swill a beer and wax philosophic all night. I, too, was the victim of a catholic up-bringing (guilt, supported by fear with a huge helping of responsibility to frick up a youth) and would love to hear your opinion of non-Japanese sushi chefs. Your words above, reflect the things I cannot put into meanful words. Thank you. 
Thank You, Reed... But I am not righteous, only flawed, like anyone.
Edited by danbo
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Joren
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 07 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 6667
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 00:11 |
Velvetclown wrote:
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HEY! Who turned on Mtv? 
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 03:40 |
the musical box wrote:
The Master Debaters: Certif1ed, Danbo, Jim Garten, James Lee, Garion, Dick Heath, Mr. Peter Rideout (although hes on an "extended" hiadus) and countless others |
Hey, I'm touched !
Hang on!.... Master Debater......What are you saying, MB?
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Dan Bobrowski
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5243
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 15:53 |
I haven't Master Debated in years.. Errr, weeks.
Okay, okay, last night, but I couldn't sleep and Shanon Tweed was on Showtime.
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 16:50 |
danbo wrote:
James Lee wrote:
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Welcome back, brother. I missed you. Try to make Cal-Prog, eh? You, me and Garion could swill a beer and wax philosophic all night. I, too, was the victim of a catholic up-bringing (guilt, supported by fear with a huge helping of responsibility to frick up a youth) and would love to hear your opinion of non-Japanese sushi chefs. Your words above, reflect the things I cannot put into meanful words. Thank you.
Thank You, Reed... But I am not righteous, only flawed, like anyone.
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Yes James come on down to Whittier in June.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 16:54 |
danbo wrote:
I haven't Master Debated in years.. Errr, weeks.
Okay, okay, last night, but I couldn't sleep and Shanon Tweed was on Showtime.
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I resemble that debate err i mean
Thanks for putting me in some awsome company Musical Box but I am not worthy. These gents be far ahead of anything I could do.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Hangedman
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 03 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1261
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 17:56 |
Always will be a genesis freak
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James Lee
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3525
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Posted: February 10 2005 at 01:50 |
Garion81 wrote:
danbo wrote:
James Lee wrote:
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Welcome back, brother. I missed you. Try to make Cal-Prog, eh? You, me and Garion could swill a beer and wax philosophic all night. I, too, was the victim of a catholic up-bringing (guilt, supported by fear with a huge helping of responsibility to frick up a youth) and would love to hear your opinion of non-Japanese sushi chefs. Your words above, reflect the things I cannot put into meanful words. Thank you.
Thank You, Reed... But I am not righteous, only flawed, like anyone.
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Yes James come on down to Whittier in June.
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Sounds like the perfect birthday gift to myself!
But "non-Japanese sushi chefs" is one of the few things I don't have any opinion on.
...I guess if I had to choose, I'd prefer my sushi chef to be Japanese, but that's about it. Hmmm...
Now you really got me thinking!
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
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Posted: February 10 2005 at 15:14 |
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You have ruin this topic
words are empty
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Philosophy.
