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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 06:02
All the things you mentioned, is there any evidence of those? Apart from your subjective opinion (not saying I don't believe you).  Just curious why there are so many superior qualities, I don't know much about the differences in mediums.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 06:19
It requires high-end equipement.
if you take your father's old turntable, you would'nt
hear what i told you.
But there are economic solutions, like a rega planar3 turntable, with a good cartridge, good cables and vibration cancellers:

About 1000 dollars for the whole.
and it will beat 10x times more expensive numeric sources...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 06:24
Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Next thing you're going to tell me there was better special effects in the Six Million Dollar Man than there was in Lord of The Rings.



Steve Austin was a real man goddammit!! Stop saying he wasn't!!!! Those effects on SMDM were too subtle and classy for people like you Gdub...
I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 06:29
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

It requires high-end equipement.
if you take your father's old turntable, you would'nt
hear what i told you.
But there are economic solutions, like a rega planar3 turntable, with a good cartridge, good cables and vibration cancellers:

About 1000 dollars for the whole.
and it will beat 10x times more expensive numeric sources...


That sounds like a lot of effort... I will try that one day, but right now I'm happy with playing CDs through my discman on a good pair of headphones. Maybe it's because I haven't heard the best sound, but the quality is fine for me. At least with that setup I can listen and go for a walk at the same time hehe.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 06:34
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:



I can continue to enumerate during hours, but overall:
with vynil, the EMOTION and PLEASURE are there.

It's the same with tube amp, versus transistor amp
(but good transistor amp are good for low frequencies in a bi-amp config)




right on! Im using some pretty funky 70s analog multitrack toys and noticing tracking is very simple, because everything is instantly "there". My friend records his 1978 jazz into there and it comes arcross as gentle, full, and bright. No ear fatigue, no hiss; just good simple analog. You know the mixer Im currently using is in fact transistor based (4558 op amp) and is capable of sounding, well I guess brittle is the word. But I have a discrete monster in the living room that has two FET circuits in each channel and I can say that comparing transitor  amp to a tube amp is like comparing a discrete circuit to an op amp based circuit. They have worked out the initial opamp digital circuit problem (noise, brittle attack) but still, the nature of the discrete circuit (a circuit where only necesarry components are used) structure resembles a tube amp more than anything

cheers
Jhn
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 06:42

Fact is that Vinyl has a superior sound range as you'll get the full spectrum on the frequency scale. Digital sound on the contrary is "chopped" at the high frequencies peaks, leaving a "flat - near empty" output at the extremes of the full range. The final result is a "pasteurized" sound sometimes too sterile for the human ear. The maintenance of Vinyl is scary and has to be performed quite frequently where as CD takes less general cares. CD will occupy less space on your shelves.

As TF's points out...the art work on vinyl was fantastic and you could actually read the credits and lyrics. On CD you have to get the "other glasss" for reading and then reach for headache pills for later.

 

__________

Lunar 

Music Is The Soul Bird That Flies In The Immense Heart Of The Listener . . .
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 06:54
Originally posted by chorus of one chorus of one wrote:

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

It requires high-end equipement. if you take your father's old turntable, you would'nt hear what i told you. But there are economic solutions, like a rega planar3 turntable, with a good cartridge, good cables and vibration cancellers: About 1000 dollars for the whole. and it will beat 10x times more expensive numeric sources...
That sounds like a lot of effort... I will try that one day, but right now I'm happy with playing CDs through my discman on a good pair of headphones. Maybe it's because I haven't heard the best sound, but the quality is fine for me. At least with that setup I can listen and go for a walk at the same time hehe.


Yes, you have to "deserve" it, in a way, and it needs a lot of effort to get good condition vynil, to wash it, to wash your cartridge, etc...
so stay happy with your cd, the big advantage of numeric is its flexibility (like numeric photo, by the way) and btw you would be surprised to learn that numeric image is less good than argentic image, but this is another subject.
anyway, don't come to listen my hifi system, unless you'd be ready to buy, cause you would be disgusted by
CD for ever.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 07:21
Originally posted by Karnevil9 Karnevil9 wrote:

Story goes like this...I sold my Prog collection on vinyl a few years ago for CD replacements...Big mistake how shocking do these old albums sound on CD....Yes you all guesed im desperatly trying to get my vinyl collection back....NO excuses British top notch ARCAM CD player & Sugden class 'A' amplification.


What is the model of your arcam's player?
Unfortunatly, Sudgen is NOT top notch amplifier!
Sold it and buy a tube amp like a "Jolida 302" instead !
Here's the REAL deal, my friend!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 07:28
Originally posted by 70sSoundquality 70sSoundquality wrote:


Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:



I can continue to enumerate during hours, but overall:
with vynil, the EMOTION and PLEASURE are there.

It's the same with tube amp, versus transistor amp
(but good transistor amp are good for low frequencies in a bi-amp config)




<span style="font-family: times new roman,times,serif;">right
on! Im using some pretty funky 70s analog multitrack toys and noticing
tracking is very simple, because everything is instantly "there". My
friend records his 1978 jazz into there and it comes arcross as gentle,
full, and bright. No ear fatigue, no hiss; just good simple analog. You
know the mixer Im currently using is in fact transistor based (4558 op
amp) and is capable of sounding, well I guess brittle is the word. But
I have a discrete monster in the living room that has two FET circuits
in each channel and I can say that comparing transitor amp to a
tube amp is like comparing a discrete circuit to an op amp based
circuit. They have worked out the initial opamp digital circuit problem
(noise, brittle attack) but still, the nature of the discrete circuit
(a circuit where only necesarry components are used) structure
resembles a tube amp more than anything

cheers
Jhn
</span>


Hi,
there are musical transistor amp like the canadian brand "Bryston" for example.
Put a good analog source(vynil, tape, tuner) on a bryston, and this is already very good.
But if you really want to cry while litening a violin, a voice or a trumpet, try a "Jolida" amplifier
This is the real deal: quite as good as a "Conrad Jonhson" but three times less expensive!!!: a l000/1500 dollars only for the Jolida302...
www.jolida.com

Others good tubes brand, not too expensive:
Cayin (china), Melody (austria)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 07:33
Originally posted by Lunarscape Lunarscape wrote:

Fact is that Vinyl has a superior sound range as you'll get the full spectrum on the frequency scale. Digital sound on the contrary is "chopped" at the high frequencies peaks, leaving a "flat - near empty" output at the extremes of the full range. The final result is a "pasteurized" sound sometimes too sterile for the human ear. The maintenance of Vinyl is scary and has to be performed quite frequently where as CD takes less general cares. CD will occupy less space on your shelves.


As TF's points out...the art work on vinyl was fantastic and you could actually read the credits and lyrics. On CD you have to get the "other glasss" for reading and then reach for headache pills for later.



__________


Lunar



Yes, cause your brain has to reconstitute the missing informations and your ears have to stand the bad added "informations", which are actually impair harmonics from
16khz to 40 khz!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 07:56

Hi Folks

I've really started things off here,i love the Vinyl Vs CD debate...

As for the comment about noise & crackles etc from the record.Um well i don't get any,if you got a crap Turntable,arm & cartridge any noise that is present on the disc it will emphisize no doubt...

Were talking specialised HI-FI here.

Sorry about CD but in my view it sucks,i bought probably one of the best CD machines around a few years back & although it one of the best i've heard (ARCAM 'CD92'),Sorry it just aint impressing me..Yes my darling wife you can have it with pleasure...

Regarding the Reel-Reel comment,nice one most of the albums i have are recorded onto a Revox 'PR99,Mk3' via DBX '2XB' sound processer which boost signals a little the same as the way CD are produced.But hey it sounds wonderfull more than i can say for the silver coffee mats.

Just spinning a 1st issue of the awesome Ramases 'Space Hymns' album as i write,anyone who knows of the original fold out poster sleeve knows the CD version is a joke.qwality

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 08:03

With vinyl you have a classic case of 'rubbish in, rubbish out'. Bad pressings, and the hiss and crackle are exaggerated - boy for example, did Decca and Deram press up some sloppy quality rock, blues and prog albums at the end of the 60's/early 70's? There wasa significant likelyhood record pressers would squeeze out several more percentage of albums from sub-masters in moulds, already showing deterioration and wear - especially the better selling albums, when they thought they could get away with it  (and they did). And worst because the sound is encoded  mechanically inside the groove on each side of the album (NOTE: one of Monty Pythons albums - Contractual Obligation Album or Matching Tie & Hankichief??? - had three grooves on one side to confuse their listeners), the longer the album the more the audio range got clipped (i.e. removal of top and bottom end frequencies). The mechanical movement of the styllus produced  two effects:

a) volume reduction because there was less styllus movement - so turn up the volume, and turn up the back group noise.

b) increased wear, because the microgroove was finer in detail and more prone to abrasion and clagging up with muck.

If you find the LP of Todd Rundgren's Initiation album, there are instructions on the sleeve to record the album asap on to tape, because with 30 minute plus a side, styllus wear on smaller than normal microgrooves would cause lost of sound quality. Many of the Gabriel period Genesis LPs were fairly generous in  length - but it wasn't until I got CDs versions I could hear the ring of Phil Collins' cymbals (part of the top end frequencies clipped). The first CD version of Jean Luc Ponty's Enigmatic Oceans, sounded like the drums and especially the cymbals have been especially mixed forward (cf. the LP version), but in reality the LP had been originally mixed on the basis of the top frequency clipping and there was a deliberate  over-emphasis of the percussion to compensate (which they forget to de-compensate for when transferring from the original master tape for CD production). One of many thing remastering does to a CD is rebalance the sound according the artist's original intentions. And of course one thing remastering shows, is that the original recordings with limited multi-track facilities meant recording tape hiss became exaggerated - compare the Deep Purple In Rock album recording on the original LP and the remastered CD. (I would nominate Roger Glover's remastering of In Rock, as measure of what can done in greatly improved audio quality - likewise the recent early Caravan remasters).

If you have a good quality copy of the early Beach Boys albums on vinyl, (when you were lucky to get 25 minutes in total play) then you might get good audio - problem with Brian Wilson, was for him the stereo mix was an afterthought. But presumably if you can afford the decks, arms and stylus (what are you paying now 4 grand sterling minimum???) then you can afford the audiophile albums. (BTW I retired my Gerrald 401 deck with SME 3012 arm to the loft). A 300 quid CD player and lot more choice of albums will do me. However, although I'm with Three Fates about print size in the liner notes of CDs....................................

 

One final thought: considering the types of plastics available nowadays, the vinyl chloride-acetate copolymer used to rpess LPs is a poor choice of material - trouble you are stuck with it, because nobody is going to invest in new technology for a small market - but I have some serious suggestions if somebdy has some serious moneyWink

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 08:40
"i bought probably one of the best CD machines around a few years back & although it one of the best i've heard (ARCAM 'CD92'),Sorry it just aint impressing me..Yes my darling wife you can have it with pleasure..."

Your arcam is good but there are much much better cd players (and much expensive of course).
If you go to the top of Naim (12000€)it would easily beat yours, and even the lowest (cd5i) can stand the comparison with your arcam, which is a good one, anyway.
You can always go further, but i agree, as i said i've listen to the best in the world (Mark Levinson) and it's good, but not much, compared to a good Linn lp12 with a "big" moving coil, etc...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 08:52
"One final thought: considering the types of plastics available nowadays, the vinyl chloride-acetate copolymer used to rpess LPs is a poor choice of material - trouble you are stuck with it, because nobody is going to invest in new technology for a small market - but I have some serious suggestions if somebdy has some serious moneyWink"

Me too
You have probably noticed that today vynil editions are mostly crap (i don't speak about special analog 180g editions).
Don't know if it's due to the plastic, or the lake of care. (or both)
Another thing about hifi:
Today, there's a new fashion of multi channel reproduction.
Last time i've been to the hifi contest, they were exposing a multi-channel system with 5 or 6 pairs of BW speakers.
These speakers are good, but to put 5 or 6 pairs is ridiculous (that's a rip-off)
The sound "image" was confuse, it was really bad.
Come to my home to listen to a mono recording of jazz guitarist Kenny burrel (1956!!!)
(early 80's japanese vynil edition)on a "classical" stereo setup with a good subwoofer, and you would be AMAZED by the dynamic, precense, etc...but overall IMAGE, tridimentional sound of that mono recording!!!
No one multi-channel setting can reach that!!
Because of that, there are even very big audiophiles who only buy mono records and own special mono cartridge...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 08:59
"as measure of what can done in greatly improved audio quality - likewise the recent early Caravan remasters"
i agree, there are among the best cd editions in 70's prog
The last KC remasters are not bad too.
There are great improvments in CD sound quality, but the gap will be never filled with analog. Unfortunatly.
(and don't expect 24bit technology or SACD to change something)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 14:24

Hi DICKHEATH

 

Yep what a pile of BS as usual...No wonder you had trouble Garrard '401' no doubt it wasnt in a specialised plinth so i guess all you trouble lies there for a start.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2005 at 14:55

I`m happy with the sound of the majority of tne CDs in my collection. But, I have Grand Funk Railroad`s "Closer to Home" album  in LP and CD. The LP has more bass frequencies than the CD, so, in this case, the sound of the LP is better.

One thing that I like from the old LPs was the cover art. Some of them had special cover designs that are not included in the CD covers anymore. For example:Led Zeppelin`s "Physical Graffitti" and "III", George Harrison`s "Extra Texture", Spooky Tooth`s "The Mirror", The Rolling Stones "Their Satanic Majesties Request", John Lennon`s "Walls and Bridges", etc. Some of them also had special label designs not included in the CDs. For example, George Harrison`s "Living in the Material World", "All Things Must Pass", "Dark Horse", "Extra Texture";Yes` "Tormato", "Yesterdays", "Going for the One", "Topographic Oceans". So, if you like some of these special designs, you lose them in the CDs. I search in the Internet to find scans of these collectable LPs. www.ebay.com is one of those sources of images.The other was www.collectable-records.ru, when it was a free website. Since last year, one has to pay to visit the website,so I don`t visit anymore.

One thing that I don`t like from the CDs is that sometimes the songs are shorter in duration for a few seconds. Some examples are: Joe Cocker`s "Wtih a liitle help from my friends", Yes` "Relayer", Jim Capaldi`s "Oh how we danced", etc.



Edited by Guillermo
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2005 at 20:13

Hi OLIVERSTONED

As i have the Arcam 'CD92' player & you say that the Naim models might be better im not really bothered about the CD machines at all,to be frank i'd wish i'd never wasted the money on a player in general,i hate CD & vouch never to spin one again.

Here in the UK theres this cultish thing going on based around british specialist hi-fi..Linn/Naim which are the two brand names that are constantly drilled into your head both at a dealers residence and the press..both companies are in my view very highly overated indeed.

As for the Sugden i bought this as i like the sound of Mosfet/Class 'A' in which the 'A25' is.i was on a budget at the time & have been saving ever since for tube amplifiacation,theres a lot of good & crap tube amps out there...Gotta be careful most are just re-workings of old vintage circuits.

Please don't come with audio products in general like Mark levinson,krell,Bryston etc etc as these are massivly over priced high end items in this country which most are seriously bad sounding products.Armourplated junk..

 

Bysie

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2005 at 23:10
I feel stupid asking... but... reel to reel? would somebody care to explain?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2005 at 04:07
Originally posted by Karnevil9 Karnevil9 wrote:

Hi OLIVERSTONED


As i have the Arcam 'CD92' player & you say that the Naim models might be better im not really bothered about the CD machines at all,to be frank i'd wish i'd never wasted the money on a player in general,i hate CD & vouch never to spin one again.


Here in the UK theres this cultish thing going on based around british specialist hi-fi..Linn/Naim which are the two brand names that are constantly drilled into your head both at a dealers residence and the press..both companies are in my view very highly overated indeed.


As for the Sugden i bought this as i like the sound of Mosfet/Class 'A' in which the 'A25' is.i was on a budget at the time & have been saving ever since for tube amplifiacation,theres a lot of good & crap tube amps out there...Gotta be careful most are just re-workings of old vintage circuits.


Please don't come with audio products in general like Mark levinson,krell,Bryston etc etc as these are massivly over priced high end items in this country which most are seriously bad sounding products.Armourplated junk..



Bysie

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