Re:London Underground

Hangedman:

"Its like saying all christians are evil and murderous becuase most nazis were christian."

Not quite.  Most Nazis were atheists.  Indeed, it is dangerously inflammatory historical revisionism to believe that Hitler et al were (actively) Christian, and particularly that it was their Christian faith that led to the attempted extermination of the Jews.

Hitler's attempt to create a "master race" was not about religion, it was about bloodlines.  The "aryans" are not a religion, but a bloodline.  And not all aryans are (or were) Christian.  Indeed, Hitler was an equal opportunity hater when it came to religion.  In fact, he planned to go after Christianity as soon as he exterminated the Jews.  In 1933, he stated as follows: "It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity, because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood.  One is either a Christian or a German.  You can't be both."

In one instance, for example, out of 690 parish priests in West Prussia, over two-thirds were arrested, and the remainder escaped only by fleeing their parishes.  After a month's imprisonment, no less than 214 of those priests were executed.  By the end of 1940, only twenty priests were left in their parishes in all of West Prussia.

Syzygy:

Thank you for this: "The terrorists of Al-Qaeda are no more representative of the rank and file of the Muslim faith (which is as multi faceted as Christianity) than the IRA were of Catholicism or Timothy McVeigh was of North American protestantism. An important step towards dealing with the threat is to end the elision of terror and Islam. London is a truly multicultural city with a huge muslim population which has reacted with possibly even more horror than the population at large, precisely because they fear unjustified reprisals from moronic bigots (sadly, there is evidence of this happening already). Muslims are members of the emergency services who coped so brilliantly with the crisis, work in the hospitals which are caring for the wounded and work and travel on the transport system which was the target of these extremists. The majority of the muslims I work with every day came to the UK to ecape repressive regimes run by the kind of fanatics who are behind Al Qaeda."

Have you seen the film "The Siege?"  If so, it seems the Doctor and NetsNJFan are hoping to see life imitate art re the treatment of Muslims in that film.

Thank you also for bringing up the unhealthy relationship between the House of Bush and the House of Saud.  And while it is true that other president's "cozied up" to Saudi Arabia, that was strictly "politics."  In the case of Bush, it is politics and money.  I wonder how many people here know of the Carlyle Group, and the financial relationship not only between the Bushes and the Saudis, but also the Bushes and the bin Laden family.  As an aside, The Carlyle Group has been quietly buying up large swaths of land in and around Manhattan, using "partners" to do the actual buying.  Soon they will own a large portion of the wealthiest city in the world.  Scary.

James:

You said: "Saudi Arabia's oil supply is actually dwindling, and nobody else has enough to make up the difference once they can no longer match increasing demand. Add to this the dangers of pollution and the volatility of the Middle East and you have an overwhelming and clear argument to steer away from a petroleum dependance...yet every move that the US government and industry makes is to continue or deepen our dependance."

Indeed.  Is anyone aware of the recent opening of an oil pipeline from the Caspian Sea?  It is the first of many planned pipelines to bring the world's largest untapped oil and natural gas reserves out of the Caspian basin and into...American oil company hands.  It runs from Azerbijian to Turkey through, among others, Iran.   However, almost all the other pipelines are dependent upon being able to go through a single country: Afghanistan.  Is a picture forming yet?

For more info on this, see:

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2005/05/24/ap2051666.htm l

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/caspian.html

http://www.newhumanist.com/oil.html

Also, for a list of some of the planned pipelines, and the countries and companies involved, see:

http://www.projfinlaw.com/transactions/transactions.asp?file =oil.htm

Maani quoted: Thank you also for bringing up the unhealthy relationship between the House of Bush and the House of Saud. And while it is true that other president's "cozied up" to Saudi Arabia, that was strictly "politics." In the case of Bush, it is politics and money. I wonder how many people here know of the Carlyle Group, and the financial relationship not only between the Bushes and the Saudis, but also the Bushes and the bin Laden family. As an aside, The Carlyle Group has been quietly buying up large swaths of land in and around Manhattan, using "partners" to do the actual buying. Soon they will own a large portion of the wealthiest city in the world. Scary.

Mark: Let's also consider that George Soros (and we all know who he is) is part of the Carlyle Group as well. Check your records. So it's not just narrowed down to one party. You know it seems that if you have any oil connection, you're automatically labeled as evil these days. All I really hear from the left is nothing but speculation and conjecture brought on by fear and emotionalism. No logic, no facts. We've gone from Lee Harvey Oswald to 4 gunmen. Anybody remember Joe Kennedy and his ties to the Nazis? When does the paranioa stop? Thank you.


Edited by marktheshark

James Lee wrote: Scientists have shown that sharks are relatively intelligent and can learn at a rate similar to that of rats and birds.

woooh, that's fast, I hope one day to learn as fast as they do

I wanted to work in a laboratory when I was younger, but even rats make more chances of getting inside one

Due to some freak coincidence I only found out about the attacks yesterday, and the news caught me in an informational vacuum, so I apologise for the belated response. My prayers go out to everyone involved in the tragedy. My cousin was in the centre of London at the time, fortuntately she was out of harm's way and is now safe back home. Too bad the same can't be said for the cousins of many other people. 

 

Joren wrote: The Doctor wrote: Tony R wrote: The Doctor wrote: Hey I'm not really all that fond of the religious nuts in this country either.  I really don't have much respect for most organized religions, Christianity included.  On the other hand, I haven't heard of Christian suicide bombers killing innocent people on their way to work.  So fundamentalist Christians would be the second group to go. What about Christian Bomber Crews?  Stop the ignorant posts. This is people killing people.Religion is just an excuse.   Ignorance is in the eye of the beholder Tony.  I'm sure not everyone on these boards shares what seems to be an ultra-left anti-western attitude.  They just apparently aren't as vocal as I am.  Ignorance to me is continuing to try to apologize for and placate those who commit these horrible atrocities, while at the same time blaming the victims (or the countries of the victims) for the acts of these animals masquerading as humans.  Hopefully, these ultra-left, anti-western attitudes will not hold sway with the majority of the people or with our elected officials or pretty soon, we will all be praising allah.  Not because we believe in it, but because we are forced to. However, I can see that I am in a minority here, or a very non-vocal majority, so I've said all I will say on the subject, except that I feel the utmost compassion for our U.K. friends. Peace.  Out.  Please read maani's post. Your original post about muslims made me really sad.  People who say things like you did are one of the reasons that there is so much hate in the world. Please try to understand that you can't throw out all muslims just because a few of them are misbehaving (how badly it may be). Every individual has his or her rights.

Very ncie to see how you ignored my post, The Doctor

Easy Living, I think there is nothing wrong with a discussion.

Joren wrote: Easy Living, I think there is nothing wrong with a discussion.

Absolutely correct Joren, I'd just prefer it to be in a different thread..

 

When I started this thread my intention was to connect up the site members in order for them to convey their sympathy to one another where they were affected and to show our support in a positive way, in a time of need. That was the intention at least, however, it would seem that it has at times digressed somewhat from that original intention.

I can understand that, as there are as many theories and speculations as to why it happens and who is really responsible, as there are many and varied feelings about this kind of terrible event.

To that degree I agree with Tony R's point of view that there can be much to learn through 'intelligent' and 'informed' discussions about these things    however,

...it became apparent to me that some of us were becoming somewhat insensitive to those people who have been directly affected by events of that nature, including 9/11, and we were at times proceeding with a line of argument which was opinionated at the expense of the feelings of others.

I might have a right to voice my opinion, but I think I need to exercise maturity by taking into account what others may be feeling at the time, particularly when it is so close to the event.

People need time to grieve. They need time to recover from the nightmare of an event like this.

My opinion then is secondary to the feelings of those people.

We may not all agree about things and we may not even like one another at times from what we have read in the posts, but I would hope that we could try to consider this, particularly in these type of events (and I only think it is realistic to assume that it will happen again.)

On reflection then can we at least try and consider one another more highly than ourselves by humbling ourselves in this way (as some have already done). It can only add to a better humanity.

I would welcome feedback on this.

Edited by barbs

This link might also help explain the feelings of some Londoners and their reaction to the reaction.

http://www.londonist.com/archives/2005/07/london_hurts.php

sigod wrote: This link might also help explain the feelings of some Londoners and their reaction to the reaction. http://www.londonist.com/archives/2005/07/london_hurts.php

Thats EXACTLY how I feel about it.

Though,obviously not a Londoner myself,we dont do "maudlin" in this country.

We just get on with it.

Edited by Tony R

Barbs, Easy:

For perhaps only the second time in recorded history (), I basically agree with Tony (Oh no!).  Although I realize and appreciate that people need time to grieve or simply get over the general shock of an incident like the London bombings, I, too, find it somewhat disingenuous to talk about a "community in grief."  As Tony notes, this may be true when you actually know someone who died or got injured.  However, other than that, the entire "community in grief" issue is something of a "whitewash": all it does is focus on the "negative" (usually for far too long, at least as the media would have it, since they have papers and advertising to sell...), rather than on anything of "substance."  Again, I am not belittling in any way the need for people to grieve (if they knew someone involved) or get over shock: heck, I minister to people in those situations fairly often.  However, people also need to "move on," and all the media does is in many cases is attempt to delay or interfere with that.

Mark:

In response to my comment about the House of Bush and House of Saud, and the Carlyle Group, you said: "Let's also consider that George Soros...is part of the Carlyle Group as well...So it's not just narrowed down to one party.  You know it seems that if you have any oil connection, you're automatically labeled as evil these days.  All I really hear from the left is nothing but speculation and conjecture brought on by fear and emotionalism. No logic, no facts. We've gone from Lee Harvey Oswald to 4 gunmen. Anybody remember Joe Kennedy and his ties to the Nazis? When does the paranioa stop?"

Yes, George Soros provided the initial funding for one of The Carlyle Group's private funds.  But I never said (or suggested) that The Carlyle Group, or "conspiracies" in general, are the province of a single party.  Bill Clinton gave the keynote speech at the Bilderberg Conference a few years ago.  And Jimmy Carter is a founding member and Honorary Chair of the Trilateral Commission.  And that's just for starters.

As for "...nothing but speculation and conjecture brought on by fear and emotionalism.  No logic, no facts," I beg to differ.  There are tons of facts, and a great deal of logic at work.  Indeed, it is the tacit intention of these groups and their members to prevent (or at least discourage) people from applying logic to the world around them, and instead simply accept what they "see" or are told.  Yes, there will always be some "speculation" and "conjecture."  But there is also a wealth of facts and information that is there if one has the time and inclination to seek it out.  And with the Internet, that has become easier and quicker to do.

Peace.