U.S. Jazz Fusion: 1970

Saperlipopette! wrote: ^^That's only the second dumbest comment I've seen here in 2025. There should be more than enough actual supression to be concerned about - so there's really no need to make that sh*t up. If you do not notice the Jazz Fusion element on Abraxas as soon as the album starts with "Singing Winds, Crying Beasts", I don't know what to tell you. It's not like Fusion typically dominates the album, but it's present here and there as a natural part of the whole. That's why multiple tags works better at describing both artists and albums, than just one genre per full discography. You know that an album (or even a song) can represent more than one genre at once right? Or maybe you don't, as I remember you had a hard time understanding that Black Sabbath could be Hard Rock and Heavy Metal simultaneously. -A couple of albums later Santana went all in an made the full blown Jazz Fusion/Jazz-Rock-masterpiece Caravanserai. Of course their Latin Rock is still present, but that's the thing with Jazz Fusion. It can be fused with practically any kind of musical style - or tradition.

Santana also made an album with perhaps the greatest Jazz Fusion guitarist ( certainly the most important in my opinion), John McLaughlin, Love Devotion Surrender. So Carlos Santana has definitely at times had his feet in the Jazz Fusion pool.

Saperlipopette! wrote: David_D wrote: Good to know that you're such a big theoretical authority, Saperlipopette!, as I haven't noticed it before. Gee thanks, I'm blushing. Your comment was inane and annoyed me, that's all.

David_D wrote: Saperlipopette! wrote: David_D wrote: Good to know that you're such a big theoretical authority, Saperlipopette!, as I haven't noticed it before. Gee thanks, I'm blushing. Your comment was inane and annoyed me, that's all. Okay, I can understand that one can get annoyed, but I'd surely prefer you not to be that rude and patronizing.  Regarding the ethnical question and respecting the intentions of an artist, well, I find them definitely worthy consideration. Then, I of course agree about the principal correctness of multitagging an album, but in the case of Abraxas and as I see it, it's quite obviously mostly a Latin Rock album, and I just don't find it appropriate to include in this poll.

David, the fact that the reason you listed for the various tags applied to the Abraxas album was due possibly to "colonialism" or "suppression" of ethnic minorities is just frankly a big eye roller. I doubt anyone who tagged these albums thought about it in those terms.

You see this today where people are labelled racist, misogynist, transphobic, Nazi, etc, etc so easily because of disagreement, not because of any malice intended. Frankly, it's getting to the point that no one pays attention when these accusations are thrown around and indeed you are seeing pushback.

Michael Shrieve, the drummer for Santana's first seven albums has stated in interviews that he was not a Latin percussionist and what he brought to Santana was rooted more in jazz and rhythm and blues.

As for the tags for Abraxas, I think most would think of the album as being mostly a Latin Rock album, that also contains a mixture of Jazz Fusion, Psychedelic Rock and Blues Rock. I don't think applying these tags is in anyway trying to denigrate Carlos Santana.

'Bitches Brew' out of all these

Edited by A Crimson Mellotron - February 13 2025 at 11:46

Big Sky wrote: David, the fact that the reason you listed for the various tags applied to the Abraxas album was due possibly to "colonialism" or "suppression" of ethnic minorities is just frankly a big eye roller. I doubt anyone who tagged these albums thought about it in those terms.

Bitches Brew > Ptah, King Kong, Abraxas

David_D wrote: Big Sky wrote: David, the fact that the reason you listed for the various tags applied to the Abraxas album was due possibly to "colonialism" or "suppression" of ethnic minorities is just frankly a big eye roller. I doubt anyone who tagged these albums thought about it in those terms. What I meant was that referring to Abraxas only in entire another context than Latin Rock, like for instance this poll only consider it to be Jazz Fusion, could be seen as a kind of colonialism or suppression of ethnic (Latin American) minority. Sorry for not being sufficiently clear about that.

No. Only those who look for racism, misogyny, cultural appropriation, etc, around every corner would see that. I'm not into the grievance game and refuse to play. Someone saw Abraxas as a Jazz Fusion album, nothing more. If you want to say it's mislabeled, fine. But, it's nothing more than that.

Saperlipopette! wrote: Some other albums in the poll have less elements of Jazz Fusion than Abraxas: Ptah, The El Daoud, Deaf Dumb Blind and of course the 1961 album Jammin' with Herbie. I don't think that is because of racism towards African Americans or anything extreme like that. I think it's due to lack of knowledge or plain carelessness.

^Latin Rock isn't completely eradicated from Abraxas because it’s one of the options in a poll that focuses on something else. That’s an absurd take as things like this happen all the time. And you do it yourself. It's included in a Jazz Fusion context because someone hears that specific quality in the music. Not because there’s nothing else to be found. Every single artist - or rather album are treated equally here, regardless of its high or low «fusion-percentage». The Experimental / Avant Rock of Weasels Ripped My Flesh isn’t gone, Ptah, The El Daoud is no less Spiritual Jazz, Post Bop or whatever…