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Krautrock |
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Jacob Schoolcraft 
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Joined: December 22 2021 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 1174 |
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 Posted: January 14 2025 at 15:38 |
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Not having skill on an instrument isnt always a requirement when you play Space Rock or Punk Rock..and sometimes regular Rock..however it's quite important to be somewhat of an above average player if you're going to be Steve Hillage's back up guitarist...or a member of Gong.
You have to know how to play an instrument and in some cases it's more important than reading. It's easy to understand why people that couldn't play an instrument did not end up in Weather Report. A person that has no skill joins in..and attempts to play in the key of G. They may choose to hang on a G note throughout a piece which they play rather loud because of the fact that they don't understand dynamics. In the end they're just wiping everybody out. They're not giving other musicians space to play a solo or anything for that matter because they're just striking a G note endlessly and hogging the music. Why? Because they're ignorant. You have to know when not to play. I'm sure you've heard that before. People that have no skill or talent do not belong in songs that are constructed with dynamics. People that have no skill might fit into Space Rock or even the early Punk..but most certainly not a Symphonic Prog Rock piece. ..unless you want to become a music director or instructor at band rehearsal. Does Steve Hackett work with people that have no skill? And if he did where would that take him? Would Univers Zero or Far Corner do that? I don't think so. It was fine in certain Krautrock bands but certainly not too many other sub-genres of Prog. If it were it would sound intrusive or unnatural..like AK-47's blasting away throughout every Triumvirat song. The musicians in CAN were skilled and they utilized an idea..but music itself is not generally a free-for-all. There's a lot of organized composition in almost every style of music on our planet which requires precision and accuracy and far from holding someone's hand at band practice, (so to speak), in order to guide them through something they have no experience playing or comprehending and that can be disastrous 😀 Edited by Jacob Schoolcraft - January 14 2025 at 15:41 |
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Lewian
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Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Online Points: 14964 |
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Posted: January 14 2025 at 16:43 |
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^ Well, the word "skill" can mean many things. Somebody without training on an instrument can still have some kind of skill. They can have musicality, originality, a sense of rhythm, and an ability to listen and react to their bandmates. Some kind of skill is certainly needed to do anything interesting, and of course you are right that proper mastery of the instrument is required for a good number of things. Still people like Damo Suzuki can bring a unique, fresh and worthwhile element to the music, which was welcome in Krautrock. (There is also bad Krautrock made by people without skill, probably far more than we know.
 But then chances are Krautrock is not alone at that.)
Personally I have little skill, and I think of my music as OKish.  Edited by Lewian - January 14 2025 at 16:44 |
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Valdez
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Joined: September 17 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 794 |
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Posted: January 14 2025 at 19:52 |
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Damo was far from a talented singer, and probably didn't have much in the way of music schooling, but he was one of the most compelling, and interesting singers... I could listen to him yell all day and never lose interest. CAN lucked out when they picked him up. I've heard 2 and 3 chord songs that I love... could be a G, an E, or an out of tune guitar. Some punk rockers just had the magic. I consider the Sex Pistols to be on top of that pile. But there were so many other great songs to come out of the 80's Punk scene. I'm in the minority, I can listen to just about anything, and if it moves me... All the better. I have preferences, yea, but nothing written in stone anymore. Sky's the limit. Art can be economical. Krautrock is just plain interesting mostly. Consider Archangel Thunderbird... She sounds just like the future John Lydon. or he her to be exact.
Edited by Valdez - January 14 2025 at 19:58 |
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https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17859 |
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Posted: January 14 2025 at 20:25 |
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HI, I'm not sure this is a fair argument ... when all one is looking at/for, is from the music side of things ... and the fact is/was that what we would consider non-music by folks that were not experienced musically, or possibly knowledgeable, went on to help many bands get their name on a marquis and certainly onto many websites and lists years later. This "ability" is overrated and sometimes relied on, by folks not listening to the music and going to the concert to count the meters and make sure the notes are right, as is the case in half the classical music concerts! And especially visible if you ever go to see a Shakespeare play ... where the "professors" only come to criticize that the meters were wrong, and ... and ... and ... And modern music has shown that errors, and things that go wrong, or different, can help create other things that were not expected or thought about. Obviously, no one is going to get into a special band that has all the talents of the most educated musicians on this earth .... and help them ... more than likely those folks will get embarrassed. But one is saying that what became known as Krautrock, could only be done by MUSICIANS, and not folks that did not know music ... and we forget the most important part of it ... at 18/19 or 20, you do NOT KNOW music as much as other folks that are into their 30's ... but what we're saying is more like ... NO ONE CAN LEARN ... and that is probably a poor thing to say ... everyone learns. The Amon Duul thing is a good example ... the AD1 was not interested in music ... I kinda say that they were into the get stoned, party and then go have sex!!!! That was the main idea of the whole thing ... have fun! And then, if you listen to their stuff, you will find bits and pieces all over that ended up in AD2 ... so you could say that a handful of folks were interested in a bit more than what the commune had to offer ... be it that they knew music, is an idea and not a reality ... not much shows up in the first album that is above and beyond in terms of musicality ... it doesn't show itself until the 2nd album, which we definitely know there are some folks that know what they are doing, or ... have learnt some more since their leaving the earlier commune. And playing together probably helped them learn a few things ... even better. And, in the end, you even get a Sufi Master playing several instruments ... he could do it on the guitar or the violin, it did not matter which! I find the comparison to various folks a bad idea ... SH and almost all of the folks around/near Canterbury were all ... what I would say advanced music students ... with Kevin Ayers possibly the only one that did not care about it, and continued doing what he did ... writing songs and folks learned it so they could play with him. But we have a bad thought here ... and examples everywhere ... that we are not considering ... Syd Barrett is the perfect example ... especially when Robert Wyatt explains Syd, and what got him taken off the map from the band he helped form. HE DID NOT KNOW MUSIC PER SE ... Robert states ..." he don't know the chords, he just plays" ... and we think that it is a requirement to know all kinds of mechanical and mathematical crap in order to play music ... WE DON'T ... what we don't know or care to give a damn about, is how did Syd see music ... I think it was all about the sound he could create and take it somewhere ... and he knew how to make the sounds he came up with, which were quite visible in Astronomy Domine and Interstellar Overdrive, and then ... PF replaced Syd with the guy that (supposedly) was his guitar teacher ... and I think that Syd did not want to learn that stuff because it interfered with his working off the sounds, and create the next sound and the next sound ... but we think that all bands are made of gold and not bread and butter!
Edited by moshkito - January 14 2025 at 20:27 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Valdez
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Posted: January 14 2025 at 20:33 |
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Agreed Moshkito. Well put!
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https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
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Jacob Schoolcraft
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Joined: December 22 2021 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 1174 |
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Posted: January 14 2025 at 20:38 |
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They can also have an ear for music and the ability to figure out on their own how to develop skill. They know how to develop technique on their own because some of it is based on common knowledge. If their right hand is their picking hand on the guitar and they need to develop more speed to play Steve Howe ..wouldn't it make sense to apply alternate picking to gain speed in the first place? When a person hears a fast passage on guitar they can in fact feel the notes . The guitar pick is in the down -up..down-up motion. The same applies to the playing of John McLaughlin where it's possible to feel the percussion of his notes. To master certain pieces of his..it takes hours of practice and actually...shutting out the world. Many people do not understand when a musician practices. Typically if they become aware of a family member or a neighbor practicing an instrument 10 hours a day they often believe that somehow...something is deadly wrong. They make judgements. They link it to depression and that is ridiculous. A Classical guitarist will practice 5 hours of scales in the morning...then 4 or 5 more hours of working a piece out along with practicing pieces they already know. You have to alternate your fingering hand and truly get used to doing that or you'll never be able to play Classical music. It's just a fact. Classical music is transcribed for the guitar. In a sense your tone will develop like a pianist tone overtime. It takes hours...weeks..months..years. Many things that Steve Hackett and Steve Howe play on Classical nylon string guitar sound easy to people...but they are not. The pianist has two hands. The pianist has 10 fingers to play notes...you...the guitar player have 5 fingers and it's more difficult. The guitar is considered a limited instrument. It's never been a member of the Symphony Orchestra but an Orchestra will back it. Just trying to get a good tone with your hands and having finesse takes years. It has nothing to do with depression. It's work! If you are not interested in blossoming as a player then stick to playing a few chords but don't judge people who practice their butt off . People who make these kinds of judgements at musicians are usually the lowest common denominator. They may justify that anyone who practices that long is doing it to be on television or radio...or one day be successful. It's got absolutely nothing to do with that! If I asked you to learn a Paganini piece..are you going to spend the least amount of time on it and play it half ass or are you going to lower your ego and practice for hours everyday until you actually get it? I've noticed for years how some people are born with talent. They have natural talent. When I taught at a music school..I had students that struggled even when they practiced..but other students had natural talent to play things back to me after hearing me play it only once. What became so difficult for other students was so easy for them. There was a lot of jealousy between students and so I encouraged them to remain humble. Ego can hold you back. Allowing yourself to make mistakes and accepting your flaws when you practice helps you to better yourself as a player. I understand the science of music...but I don't even think about theory when I write something. I'm influenced by nature and unless music inspires me I usually don't pursue forcing it to come out. I wait for a time when it does. You should never force music. It's an art form. Let it happen naturally. Edited by Jacob Schoolcraft - January 14 2025 at 20:52 |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17859 |
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Posted: January 15 2025 at 08:43 |
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Hi, Practice is only as good as the individual depends on it ... but, with my experience in acting with actors, and complete improvisation, I will change this comment to something different ... practice is dependent on your ability to concentrate, and sometimes, practicing 10 hours is a sign that this person's interest and commitment to a piece of music, is a problem ... otherwise the player would pick it up much better and easier. Another issue ... the generalities are bad, for you and I, although I think what you say is easier to accept than what I am stating, which still is underneath it all and not discussed much ... I even tried to communicate with a "teacher" of music and his articles on various development ideas ... and his answer? SILENCE. His idea of music? His ideas ... and he has not shown an interest in the students at all and none of them will ever get "there" and better with his work ... you can't work with other ideas ... you can only improve with your own ability to concentrate ... and then adapt the little teeny details that help you do what you have to do ... this is the part that is ignored altogether. Jakob, please look up some of Peter Brooks books on acting, and a lot of his improvising discussions ... they are mind blowing. One actor, Keith Michell did King Lear with him and they toured for some 200+ shows ... and Keith was an intuitive actor and did not like rehearsing ... and yet at the moments of ... the best in Shakespeare, he would have a set of repetitive lines, that he did every night, and PB's comment was ... he never heard Keith do it the same way twice in a couple of years ... and THAT has nothing to do with PRACTICE at all ... that has to do with one's intuition and ability to concentrate, and he was very comfortable in his role as the King, and he played it as if every night was a different night, and it was magnificent. You would want to see that display, anytime! I'm not going to discuss RF's "practice" ... as I do not believe that he needs it as much as he thinks, unless he has an idea that his fingers will tighten up as he gets older and the practice will help slow that down ... I'm not sure of that ... you can't change/cheat time. It is my idea that he has lapses and gets interrupted mentally, and it bothers him (just like Keith Jarrett in his later days with some coughing!) ... and takes his attention away from things, thus he uses the headset to ensure he can stay focused and not quite worried about "externals". His practicing might be simply to ensure he knows what he has to do tonight, instead of anything else, and that would be a reminder, not a practice. But anyone ... ANYONE ... having to practice scales that much? They are not listening and they do not exactly know how how to work with them ... and are probably afraid to even think a different note is going to screw up everything ... which means that the student was not taught how to get and feel better about the work he/she does ... that has nothing to do with practice, but it shows when the time comes. Classical music, in its best, is not exactly the best and its over rated "practice" is a sign that the audience that is not playing music is there to count the meters and the notes, and then go teach their music class tomorrow! These folks are not good teachers of music, in fact, I often consider them the leftovers that never made it, which is the same case in the story of film and theater. And those folks are known to deceive their students into thinking that this or that is the law and what you need, and it isn't ... all you need is YOU ... and we still ignore that discussion!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17859 |
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Posted: January 15 2025 at 08:54 |
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... And we still do not recognize how much of this individualism was what created what we consider "krautrock" that was also massive in film and theater, where these things are more visible. And, in many ways, someone from the outside making that comment about the Germans, was obviously a loser that will never get on stage and play music ... and think himself bigger than the music, the musician, or the artist ... and this is a bad issue when it comes to discussing intuitive materials ... like here, some folks are not going to like it! I'm OK with that ... but the arts are not your idea or mine, or theirs ... but one thing that scares us, is when it is intuitive, and we can not see where it comes from! Heck, we don't know anything about the human spirit any more than we do the Universe! |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Jacob Schoolcraft
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Joined: December 22 2021 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 1174 |
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Posted: January 15 2025 at 11:19 |
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Hi, Practice is only as good as the individual depends on it ... but, with my experience in acting with actors, and complete improvisation, I will change this comment to something different ... practice is dependent on your ability to concentrate, and sometimes, practicing 10 hours is a sign that this person's interest and commitment to a piece of music, is a problem ... otherwise the player would pick it up much better and easier. I don't see this being strongly true . Or perhaps your description of this applies mostly to rare cases. I grew up in a Classical family. What practice meant was improvement overtime. An example would be perhaps learning a strange but beautiful Mozart piece that is melodic and intricate. You learn the piece from the manuscript then you memorize the piece and toss the manuscript away or put it on file for a reference guide. Now the piece is in your head. The question is...how will you interpret the piece? Will you add embellishments? Will you get creative with the piece or will you insist on playing the same way everytime?...which is exacting to the manuscript. For example you listen to a recording of yourself age 20 playing that piece and you are age 40 something now and hear the improvement in yourself. When you play the piece now it's like a waterfall of notes. It sounds universal now where before it just sounded like a musician with good technique...but robotic...or afraid to walk alone. Practice and performing develops independence. If you don't practice much you'll have less chance in discovering your abilities...for example the one's that you wish to expand on. You can discover them through performing improvisation workshops . Some of these workshops I participated in introduced more spontaneity in playing Egyptian music. Improvising Egyptian style alongside hearing other kinds of instruments. Wind instruments for example. Musicians blending together or improvising while people danced or even meditated. But....hell..we all practiced for hours at home. Everybody practiced for hours to develop daily independence |
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moshkito
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Posted: January 15 2025 at 14:07 |
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And that just shows why so many folks dumped classical music and are playing in rock or jazz bands. And it explains the majority of the keyboard players that we love dearly ... Keith would be laughed at and trashed if he brought a score to a professor of TARKUS ... because it would be thought of as inconsistent, with sections that did not flow and connect well ... and then in the hands of someone else on piano almost 50 years later? An astounding piano concerto, but no one on PA will see that, I don't think!
The difference here is the director/conductor, in the piece ... and sometimes they are the problem, not the player! The main issue with a lot of rock music, is not having an outside voice and person to help ensure the pieces are more complete and defined, instead of simply follow a high school format! Modern folks think a recording tells them all they want to see and hear. It is not an exact science since you are dealing with people, but there is not a whole lot wrong with interpretation of a piece and its score. The main issue, in these modern times, is that we think the original is perfect and everyone else is crap! So, today, there would not be room for a Karahan, or Leinsdorf, or Bernstein, or Ozawa, or Stokowski ... because the Internet audience would not like it! It's like watching "Waiting for Godot", and you don't realize it, but you might see it 10 times, and there are going to be different moments all 10 times, because there is room in the piece for the actors to work ... it does NOT deter from the piece at all ... and likewise I have, and enjoyed 5 different versions of Tosca, and Turandot, and I can tell you that the differences are neat ... and work just fine, and complement the support by the orchestras.
Not in my case. What happened 20 years ago is a part of that specific time and place, and does not belong in anything I do today. In the arts, and specially music, it maybe different as the audiences these days want to hear the "hit", or the well known part, and ignore the rest .... but for me, that is an issue with the commercial environment that is killing classical music because of the sales in all popular music, be it rock, jazz blues, rap ... whatever. I remember a special on Isaac Stern, and he commented that he didn't think he played pieces when he was 60, any better than when he was 30. He hoped that everyone thought it sounded right ... not "different". If you look at some other arts, there is no past ... the painting is finished ... the novel is published ... and it is weird that we are thinking that is has to be different ... it doesn't, and more often than not it won't be. But hearing a geriatric someone sing and play their hit from 30/40 years ago, in rock music, is getting to be a really tiring experience, and very boring ... and the feeling and desire to do it for its own life, is not there!
This is different for everyone. Some folks will practice and be looking for new spots and specific places when they can do something to it ... others are merely making sure their notes are in order. But expecting John Myung, or Robert Fripp to do it simply to find something is not likely ... but if Robert is honest about how he came up some 50 years with so much new music, you can say right away it was not by accident ... and it was not by design either ... and likely a combination of factors that required something else, depending on what he does for fun in between. This is the really hard part in "krautrock" and not all the bands were really good in concert ... with Tangerine Dream probably being the one that made sure that things were together and clear ... you always recognized the piece. And then you can see Grobschnitt, and in one album (Solar Music Live Remastered) there are several versions of the same piece, and it suggests that even in concert they could not stick to a script and loved to flow around, AND DID! Can was likely not to be the same, although the recent release of them live showed some of the limitations that Damo accidentally created for himself and the band. But no one said it was bad or wrong, and if you watch the Jaki Liebezeit tribute ... it was magnificent with both Damo and Michael Rother just far out and amazing! Amon Duul 2 is the only band that did not exactly sound good in concert after their first 10 years, when they likely wanted to be freer and not be tied to rehearsals and more band fights ... and it is sad in many ways, although the show that has some #Nada Moonshine Number ... seems to be much better rehearsed, but the rest of their material wasn't at all it feels like! It's really hard to determine here what the issue was ... but the members were known to be very independent and sometimes not cooperative with each other. Guru Guru is another example ... I am not sure that Mani cared what the music sounded like as long as he and the band could have fun for the audience and his antics and costumes would help the party ... but they also lost a lot in the translation ... which I think goes back to the lack of a rehearsal. Long live Krautrock ... folks just don't seem to care how it came about and with whom, except their ideas about this and that, which can be easily dismantled in the next band listed. But it all worked, and came alive ... and we remember it, more than ever! I think that says more about the very process than it does "music" per se ... but in this case the process was not exactly written anywhere ... it was being born each and every time with each person involved .. .and that is the history of it ... that sometimes we don't like because it is so vastly different than all the other conventional music around that we know and listen to!
Edited by moshkito - January 15 2025 at 14:09 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Logan
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Posted: January 15 2025 at 14:31 |
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Covers of songs and adaptations of works are being made of music that interpret music in different ways to this day that are getting positive notice. I think that this "we" construct is not as universal and homogenous as you seem to believe.
Again this internet audience you speak of is not as homogenous a group as you seem to think, nor do I believe that this audience you speak of is stopping it. Concerts still take place with new interpretations of music. There is still space for lots of different approaches and it can be all too easy to over-generalise. Edited by Logan - January 15 2025 at 14:35 |
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Valdez
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Posted: January 15 2025 at 17:47 |
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More than enough audience. A glut of fantastic new music, but much of it is getting lost in the crowd. What's HOT is whatever the almighty media is jamming down our throats daily. Media outlets cockily hold their hand out, and whoever drops the most cash in the hand gets to play. Many media outlets own their superstars outright, and spend many thousands pushing them... to make millions. The media machine did latch on to 21 pilots in the beginning and at least they got that right. The 'Blurry face' & TRENCH albums are works of art. The media doesn't glom onto them anymore after they strayed away from their couple of monster pop hits. I prefer to do my listening underground, away from the flavor of the day. Old & New Krautrock style fits the bill. Logan and I both like YOO DOO RIGHT... Pretty obscure but we found them in the crowd. I don't follow classical or the composers, but hopefully they are composing new material, because I don't care who plays Beethovens 5th... again. I found an old Villa-Lobos album and played it through and was really impressed. It took me by surprise. I never know what's going to grab me until it actually does. I'm not a fan of categorizing... Genres just confuse me, and I am not knowledgeable enough to argue about them, because I honestly don't care. It's the reason I don't post often. Some heated conversations here may as well be in outer space.
Edited by Valdez - January 15 2025 at 18:08 |
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https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
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Jacob Schoolcraft
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Posted: January 15 2025 at 19:54 |
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And that just shows why so many folks dumped classical music and are playing in rock or jazz bands. And it explains the majority of the keyboard players that we love dearly ... Keith would be laughed at and trashed if he brought a score to a professor of TARKUS ... because it would be thought of as inconsistent, with sections that did not flow and connect well ... and then in the hands of someone else on piano almost 50 years later? An astounding piano concerto, but no one on PA will see that, I don't think! They were snobs. But there's open minded people everywhere. Many classically trained keyboardists I knew in the 70s loved Tarkus and spent hours learning how to play it. They certainly realized that the Classical community was full of snobbery...they had to deal with it everyday. There are all kinds of music snobs. They make my skin crawl. There are stupid snobs.. they walk in on you as you practice and say..."Well...I can tell when you're making a mistake" I'm suppose to be making mistakes because I'm practicing...NOT PERFORMING. They are conceded individuals. Music is not a stunt car driver on the track. Gymnastics fall into play sometimes but that doesn't mean you can't put some feeling into it. I don't like guitar battles...or cutting heads. It's not music! It's a macho game between musicians competing to see who is most clever. In the music business there are band leaders who try to buy you. They need a guitarist to play The Eagles, CCR, etc...Southern Rock and they act as if John Fogerty is Mozart . All you have to do is be honest by saying that you don't prefer the style and you suddenly become this bad person in their eyes. Why? Because Fogerty is the messiah. It's ridiculous! "Oh it's a red flag if you don't like CCR. " No it is not! That's called honesty. When band leaders try to control their band members it's narcissistic. Music is free spirited . It never follows one particular path. Their taste is as such that signature lines played by CAMEL make them vomit. They'd rather hear 3 chord Swamp Rock and praise it like a religion. Their position is moronic. They are fixated on picking apart anybody that plays like John McLaughlin or George Benson. They are the opposite spectrum from Classical snobs..or Jazz snobs...nevertheless the point being that music is an art form not a game that narcissists apply to their own agenda... |
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moshkito
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Posted: January 15 2025 at 20:31 |
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I think that the Internet and websites like this one, help a lot ... and hope that this improves with time ... I think a student getting will known for a piece of music that a professor rejected, is going to hurt that professor's credibility sooner or later ... and doing it a 2nd and 3rd time, is probably going to make it worse. I like the idea of making sure things get seen ... and the only request I have is that there should be more honesty about it, not more comparison to something else.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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kirk782
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Posted: 9 hours 58 minutes ago at 06:01 |
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Was Dusseldorf a major center from where multiple kraut rock bands originated? La Dusseldorf is one that comes to my mind.
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kirk782
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Posted: 9 hours 52 minutes ago at 06:07 |
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This opinion might invite ridicule but whilst I loved Can's sound,I wasn't the biggest fan of Suzuki's vocals.Some of my favorite Can albums like Monster Movie or Landed don't have their iconic lead singer on it.
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Lewian
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Posted: 7 hours 50 minutes ago at 08:09 |
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Kraftwerk, Neu! and LaDüsseldorf were all connected; a few creative personalities created a very productive network there. Düsseldorf also was a major center when German punk/new wave started in the end 70s and early 1980s. Not sure whether that was related at all, but different from other prog bands, Kraftwerk, Neu!, LaDüsseldorf were well appreciated by a number of people who started something new at that point (also Can). Düsseldorf is also surrounded by other major cities, partly also music centers like Cologne, which for sure helps. |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17859 |
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Posted: 4 hours 57 minutes ago at 11:02 |
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Hi, This is all clearly explained and shown in the book "Future Days" that shows several areas and what their ability/talent was ... and they were all different.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Lewian wrote: