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Collaborative music project ?

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 03:22
Well, this is the generic problem with collaborations. :-) 

The sad fact is that a lot of "musicians" out there... aren't. You get tied in to doing a collaborative piece with someone who can't play bass, can't keep time on drums, or has no imagination. I've done collaborative tracks with people who just add one repeating bassline throughout a five minute piece - same four bars over and over again - or just take a track, add some kind of totally inappropriate distortion filter to it and viola ! - that's their contribution. 

Then you have two options - either to say "Well, thanks very much" or "To be honest, I can't use that." Politeness means you end up using it in most cases. 

I'm a multi instrumentalist. Jack of all trades, master of none. Part of the reason I play so many instruments is that it's difficult to find other people who - really - think along the same lines that I do. Music works properly when you're all thinking along the same lines. This used to be possible when (I'm thinking 1970's) there were a lot of skilled and creative musicians around, but the bar has got lower and lower and it's very rare to find someone who can actually *play* nowadays. By *play* I mean actually improvise, come up with ideas and execute them to a high standard. When you've got that, the whole band bounces off each other and you create something special. Life is too short to just produce crap. 

Referring back to "talking shop" - whilst this thread has been going on, a friend of mine has released six full albums. All very good stuff. All of them have been solo efforts. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 21:42
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Well, this is the generic problem with collaborations. :-) 

The sad fact is that a lot of "musicians" out there... aren't. You get tied in to doing a collaborative piece with someone who can't play bass, can't keep time on drums, or has no imagination. 
...
 

Hi,

Interesting, and I, honestly, think that a lot of the things being released and considered "progrock" are somewhat in that vein, at least in that they are formatted exactly the same as many others, and the breaks are pretty much in the same spots. 

Side Note: In my days as a director in theater, one of my greatest achievements, was not intentional at all ... I ended up working with actors that were not experienced, and got magnificent results out of it, and a professor asked me what I did ... nothing really ... we just rehearsed and improvised a lot, in order for the youngsters to learn how to move with their words ... something that is a problem for many actors ... they pause, pose and deliver ... gosh ... 100 years old acting!!!

All I did, was help accentuate their doing to make it smoother and cleaner ... and so that it was CLEAR ... and that made a difference. The more experienced actors were not fun ... they were set on their chops and would not take directions ... for example ... it would be pause, pose ... BOOM IT LOUD for attention! And sometimes, it was out of character and touch of the whole thing ... but it suggested that this more experienced person was in it for the attention, not the play, or in this case the music!

Side Note 2: One of the details in the first Coffee House Band thing, was that it started out with an incredible well done and pretty keyboard part ... and it was NEVER used again the whole song, though it showed up very low in the background towards the end.  From a "story" perspective, this is bad ... you give someone an idea/visual, and immediately you take it away and you expect the audience to stay with you? It's hard enough to get the "attention" ... but to throw it away because the singer wants to sing it right here, or the guitar wants to start right here (and in this case drop the keyboards!) ... there were some nice things in the piece, and it wasn't bad, but from a presentational ability, it did something that it dumped ... what's the point? ... 


Edited by moshkito - November 14 2024 at 21:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 21:50
Hi,

Dave ... I'm gonna work on a small VISUAL piece ... and will post it here ... I might even film it with my small video camera if it develops good enough. Let's see if this helps a start ... however I can see a problem already .. if I go outside, I already do not see a loud guitar part ... though some crows bark a lot in the morning. Let's see if I can do this ... it is VERY backwards from the way I work, which is 100% intuitive and not influenced by anything else but what is with it at that very second. It has its own "continuity", story wise, for lack of a better word.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 01:55
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Well, this is the generic problem with collaborations. :-) 

The sad fact is that a lot of "musicians" out there... aren't. You get tied in to doing a collaborative piece with someone who can't play bass, can't keep time on drums, or has no imagination. I've done collaborative tracks with people who just add one repeating bassline throughout a five minute piece - same four bars over and over again - or just take a track, add some kind of totally inappropriate distortion filter to it and viola ! - that's their contribution. 

Then you have two options - either to say "Well, thanks very much" or "To be honest, I can't use that." Politeness means you end up using it in most cases. 

I'm a multi instrumentalist. Jack of all trades, master of none. Part of the reason I play so many instruments is that it's difficult to find other people who - really - think along the same lines that I do. Music works properly when you're all thinking along the same lines. This used to be possible when (I'm thinking 1970's) there were a lot of skilled and creative musicians around, but the bar has got lower and lower and it's very rare to find someone who can actually *play* nowadays. By *play* I mean actually improvise, come up with ideas and execute them to a high standard. When you've got that, the whole band bounces off each other and you create something special. Life is too short to just produce crap. 

Referring back to "talking shop" - whilst this thread has been going on, a friend of mine has released six full albums. All very good stuff. All of them have been solo efforts. 
Hi Dave, of course I'm one of them. If i were a real musician I wouldn't waste my time in writing reviews instead of on playing and writing. Despite having refused a contract with a label whan I was seventeen because I couldn't actually move to Milan having to do the final exam for my last year of secondary school. I have recently sold the music for a song to a lyricist and some crazy people has bought some of my so-called "albums" on Bandcamp. 
Music hasn't to be necessarily professional. You can play tennis (I don't) without being Sinner or Alcaraz. 
You are rigth about a point: a professioanl musician can't waste time with people like me. For this reason I've given up to a collaboration proposal by Claudio Milano, as I don't think I'm good enough to collaborate with a real artist.

But if one of us unprofessionals makes by coincidence a good chord progression, a professional musician may rework it. This is what some producers do.

So, without pretending to be an artist, I offer my stuff to anybody wants to spend some time on it, and I don't care about the copyright. I don't like what the lyricist has done with my song in terms of lyrics, but the rework and the production are fine, so I'm happy even if it doesn't reflect at all what I was meaning when I wrote it.

Maybe one day I'll play tennis, but currently I stick on being a goalkeeper at friendly tournaments.
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 2 hours 60 minutes ago at 05:49
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

...
Hi Dave, of course I'm one of them. 
...

Hi,

As much as some folks think that I am way too high minded and tend to stand up to an impossible standard for most folks ... I find this ... REALLY SAD ... and I'll explain.

Our house in Santa Barbara had a library of Portuguese, Spanish and Brazilian Literature (most of it in Lisbon now!!!) ... and those 3 probably were about 20/25k worth of listings ... at the time dad passed away, the Graduate students in the Portuguese/Spanish Department, were helping document/index a bunch stuff ... that was in the library ... but was not known or listed before ... I can not tell you how many but I once heard it mentioned that it was in the neighborhood of 2 to 3K listings.

At the time, I was reading Castaneda, and don Juan made a comment about Carlos PHD work, and it said ... "you know what Mexicans do with paper ... " something I have always disliked and found horrendous and is something I always remember here on PA when some folks trash stuff senselessly ... I might joke about RW or someone else ... but not ever put them down for their work!

Thus, my thoughts are that anyone thinking they can not get any inspiration from a 4 year old just putting and having fun hitting the keyboard, or watching a 3 year old hit some cans with sticks in Harlem ... as bad musicians, and someone that has o imagination at all ... and this is one of the greatest secrets of "improvisation" ... you have to let go of all you know and play the child, and enjoy the experience ... your comment makes me think that most folks, even DaveSax, can not enjoy that or take anything from it and help it, or improve it ... THAT WOULD BE SAD! You gonna help that child develop his/her musical sensibilities or are you gonna take them out of that child? Be careful with your answer!!!!! (City of Lost Children story/movie!!!) ... that means that this overgrown child here is out of the equation ... that's OK ... no harm, no foul, and besides, there is no money in it for me!!! (!!! Wink)

Dave is "independent" in his work, probably because of his technical knowledge, and I think that he wants to expand his ability a bit more than just the technical side of things ... (my thoughts more or less on this!!!) ... but I can understand him stating what he did ... he's gonna see a lot of really bad and probably poor comments about things ... but I am not sure that this can be done without all the "bad" stuff around it and maybe he should decide ahead of time which folks he wants to do this with instead of a wide open idea and as many fish on the sea.

This was a problem in my experience with The Coffee House Band ... a couple of them said ... you're not a musician, you wouldn't know ... and I still translate that as ... you're not a member of our club and we don't need.use your comments! I wasn't offended, but it was obvious that a sort of "director" or "george martin" was not what they wanted to help develop the piece into a better, stronger composition, that just merely another rock song no one was going to give a cahoot about, which is how they treated it ... a fun time, and they did not care about anything else!

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

...
If i were a real musician I wouldn't waste my time in writing reviews instead of on playing and writing. 
...

I was thinking that you might have stated ... you wouldn't have the time. Between family and then your work, the spare minutes will probably be spent taking the child and wife out for a walk! Not to mention that you might have to work 40 hours weekly to put food on the table for the family!


Edited by moshkito - 2 hours 52 minutes ago at 05:57
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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