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Cristi 
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 43626
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 Posted: November 10 2024 at 03:07 |
 Saperlipopette! wrote:
Cristi wrote:
If people have fun with bickering and trolling, good for them. Not my thing.
The decision not to have such threads for a while seems reasonable for me. Why do people want more of that thing makes less sense to me though.
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People are differnt from you - and me. And besides you only focus on the negative parts. My impression is that it's less about genuine trolling and more about hotheaded members losing control of themselves. Maybe it's healthier for some to blow off some steam here among frenemies than to walk around with all this anger inside. |
But if they blow off some steam and lose control to the detriment of other users, that's not good either (obviously).
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 11621
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 03:39 |
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^But that's why I say that if you can't take heated discussions - stay away. How hard is that really? Nothing is perfect and it usually takes two to tango anyway. I know many that actually enjoy such online argumenting, that don't get hurt by "hurtful comments" or whatever - and simply brush it off. Many people get something out of it. Otherwise they wouldn't ask why not politics in threads like this one and others before. Some may even learn a thing or two while arguing. I really don't get why or how this can be an issue for you. I don't care if someone's trolling each other in the comment section underneath some youtube video right now. Because I'm not there taking part in it.
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Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 43626
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 03:43 |
Saperlipopette! wrote:
^But that's why I say that if you can't take heated discussions - stay away. How hard is that really? Nothing is perfect and it usually takes two to tango anyway. I know many that actually enjoy such online argumenting, that don't get hurt by "hurtful comments" or whatever - and simply brush it off. Many people get something out of it. Otherwise they wouldn't ask why not politics in threads like this one and others before. Some may even learn a thing or two while arguing. I really don't get why or how this can be an issue for you. I don't care if someone's trolling each other in the comment section underneath some youtube video right now. Because I'm not there taking part in it. |
So are you saying it's perfectly fine to be abusive, but if you can't take it, walk away then...  ?!
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 11621
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 03:53 |
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^What do you mean by abusive? It sounds more extreme that discussions going out of hand - which is closer to the issue isn't it?. Hurtful comments are simply unavoidable if you interact with other people about certain topics, such as politics on the internet. If you're too precious for nasty internet-comments. Stay away or log off, yes.
Edited by Saperlipopette! - November 10 2024 at 03:56
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Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 43626
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 04:12 |
Saperlipopette! wrote:
^What do you mean by abusive? It sounds more extreme that discussions going out of hand - which is closer to the issue isn't it?. Hurtful comments are simply unavoidable if you interact with other people about certain topics, such as politics on the internet. If you're too precious for nasty internet-comments. Stay away or log off, yes. |
Your post here just confirms it was a good idea for admins to put a stop to this kind of threads for a while.
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14110
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 05:28 |
^ so to this thread as well, you mean? I think I have raised an interestig discussion. I know that the guy in your avatar would disagree with me, as for what I know, he has never been involved in politics.
But what if I start writing about Palestine while commenting "Luglio, Agosto, Settembre Nero" from AREA. Settembre Nero (Black September) was one of the so-called "terrorist" Palestine factions. The song starts with a short poetry in arabic spelled by a woman with a sad voice. That poetry speaks of peace. She asks her man to give up to anger, pain and weapons. Demetrio Stratos solo vocals then introduces a middle-eastern flavored music that later turns into a sort of free-jazz form.
It could be what you call "a cheap excuse", but are you sure that we can speak of this song without mentioning the geo-political issues it's about?
Saperlipopettel pointed to "threads not related to music" forum section. That's where this thread should be moved to as well, maybe.
The point is: has any of us been "abusive" in this thread? If so, it's a thread's fault or an individual's fault? You can probably remember what happened years ago in one of the many "Genesis vs Yes" threads. There's no need of politics in order to be bad.
In my view, politics is a subject like any other. Thinking to Trump as an example: am I allowed, in your opinion, to criticize or even endorse the man regardless his political positions? I find him hateful as a person, and I would find him hateful even if he was on the other side of politics. I'm not American and I personally didn't like any of the candidates. I wouldn't have voted at all, probably.
Said so, I'm happy to read about your opinions, now that I have hopefully clarified mine. This is just a discussion. Taking actions is admin's stuff.
Next thread: Religion
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Online
Points: 5358
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 05:45 |
| It could be what you call "a cheap excuse", but are you sure that we can speak of this song without mentioning the geo-political issues it's about? |
Personally, I think it is absolutely fine as long as it is neutral in terms of POV and doesn't come off as a preachy rant. Or, anything that doesn't try to elevate one point of view over another. I think it should stick to the context of the song. But judging by the OP, octopus 4 clearly wants to do some preachin'. Some tasty toxic Trump roastin. Just another opportunity to show those blind stupid Americans who voted for the bad guy where they belong. I don't support that type of "mentioning" geo-political issues. Not because I disagree (I agree, and I hate Trump). But because it very often leads to flame wars and obnoxious behavior on social media and forums.
Edited by Hrychu - November 10 2024 at 05:50
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On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.
Ernest Vong
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14110
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 06:00 |
"neutral" is a word that I don't like. If I have an opinion about any thing, why should I be neutral? I hate reggaeton music, should I be neutral speaking about it?
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Online
Points: 5358
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 06:03 |
octopus-4 wrote:
"neutral" is a word that I don't like. If I have an opinion about any thing, why should I be neutral? I hate reggaeton music, should I be neutral speaking about it? |
I'll leave it up to you. Use common sense. I don't think talking about Reggaeton causes as much toxicity as talking about politics. Politics are EXTRA SPECIAL CONTROVERSIAL. Here on Progarchives, not a single reggaeton related thread led to any drama and rude behavior from the userbase. As for politics on the other hand? Well, it keeps happening all the time.
Edited by Hrychu - November 10 2024 at 06:04
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On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.
Ernest Vong
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Manuel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13351
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 06:05 |
Cristi wrote:
Most threads about politics ended up in abuse and insults, that's why i never participate in such conversations.
If i want to talk politics, i would not choose a music site. Discovering music is the point of a site like PA. |
I agree. Whatever is discussed in this forum, should be about music. Politics, religion, and other controversial topics, should be discussed in a forum dedicated to those topics.
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Online
Points: 5358
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 06:06 |
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Yeah. By now, people should remember to "read the room". Not every forum and social platform is a good place for discussing certain subjects.
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On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.
Ernest Vong
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 11621
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 06:46 |
Cristi wrote:
Saperlipopette! wrote:
^What do you mean by abusive? It sounds more extreme that discussions going out of hand - which is closer to the issue isn't it?. Hurtful comments are simply unavoidable if you interact with other people about certain topics, such as politics on the internet. If you're too precious for nasty internet-comments. Stay away or log off, yes. |
Your post here just confirms it was a good idea for admins to put a stop to this kind of threads for a while. |
What the hell did I say that was so wrong? Is disagreeing with you trolling or abuse or something?
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14110
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 06:48 |
Hrychu wrote:
octopus-4 wrote:
"neutral" is a word that I don't like. If I have an opinion about any thing, why should I be neutral? I hate reggaeton music, should I be neutral speaking about it? |
I'll leave it up to you. Use common sense. I don't think talking about Reggaeton causes as much toxicity as talking about politics. Politics are EXTRA SPECIAL CONTROVERSIAL. Here on Progarchives, not a single reggaeton related thread led to any drama and rude behavior from the userbase. As for politics on the other hand? Well, it keeps happening all the time. |
A reaggeton related thread would make me rethink about the site, much more than any controversial subject.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 43626
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 07:03 |
Saperlipopette! wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Saperlipopette! wrote:
^What do you mean by abusive? It sounds more extreme that discussions going out of hand - which is closer to the issue isn't it?. Hurtful comments are simply unavoidable if you interact with other people about certain topics, such as politics on the internet. If you're too precious for nasty internet-comments. Stay away or log off, yes. |
Your post here just confirms it was a good idea for admins to put a stop to this kind of threads for a while. |
What the hell did I say that was so wrong? Is disagreeing with you trolling or abuse or something? |
I never said you were wrong, and I never implied disagreement with me is trolling or abuse.
You are basically saying that hurtful comments (well, that can mean a lot of things like insults, verbal abuse, racism, xenophobia, etc) are just part of the conversation. Nasty internet comments are the most common thing, deal with it, if not just piss off...  Right?!
And you are surprised admins and others want to take a break from that?!
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Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 43626
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 07:05 |
octopus-4 wrote:
A reaggeton related thread would make me rethink about the site, much more than any controversial subject. |
A reaggeton related thread on PA is one of the signs of the coming of apocalypse. 
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14110
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 07:06 |
Just one last though before I leave the discussion to other participants as I think I've already told my opinions:
What about the "revolutionary aspect of Rock"? What about Dylan, Rolling Stones, even John Lennon, Janis Joplin, Doors, Woodstock and so on.
Rock and politics have reciprocally influenced each other. Of course Elven realms and Unicorns are common topics in prog, but there's much more. Music concerns every aspect of life. The faith of Neal Morse, the Second Attention of Jon Anderson, the "Spaces between friends" of Roger Waters, love in general, sex and drugs and rock and roll, Anarchy in the UK et cetera...
Remember the musical "Hair"? And Jesus Christ Superstar initially considered heretic by tha catholic church? "In the beginning Man created God" from Aqualung.
Just one last question: can I say that I agree with Ian Anderson's sentence from Aqualung or should I be "neutral"?
The forum rules are clear enough about PA's netiquette. Enough to keep the site safe from "keyboard lions".
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14110
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 07:08 |
Cristi wrote:
octopus-4 wrote:
A reaggeton related thread would make me rethink about the site, much more than any controversial subject. |
A reaggeton related thread on PA is one of the signs of the coming of apocalypse. |
So we finally agree about something 
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17510
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 07:26 |
Hi,
I really do not do politics, and when I vote, I'm the quietest person you ever met.
We had a hard time as a family in Portugal way back when, and even after dad passed away, there were folks still checking out mom as she got older and published some more of dad's work.
In the end her family suffered horribly because of it, with one of her brothers shot ... and we do not know, how many threats there were to the family, as both mom and dad never even whispered anything about it all ...
These days, I think that some things should remain personal and not a discussion ... politics is one, aside from the House or Senate, or equivalent in other countries. I like the idea of sharing some ideas and knowledge around, but other than artistic ideas, the others have all gone down badly for many folks ... and there were a lot of leaders that took advantage of the idea to be a carnivore. And in some countries you could say humans are just another animal!
While I think there are folks here on PA that are more mature and with it, in the end, I think that we will always fight for what we think is right, and not care about who is ahead of us, similar to folks here not liking people saying completely different things .... sort of like my God is not your God kind of thing.
But I do think, that shutting down everyone's comments and views, is (normally) an avenue to a much more difficult situation soon enough ... there are millions of examples out there ... you can't control folks long enough ... and eventually it explodes.
I would love to see some peace and love, not anything else ... I'm ok with dialogue, but even that is not something that many folks can handle on PA. It's not about right or wrong ... it's about being!!!
Edited by moshkito - November 10 2024 at 07:28
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 11621
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 07:55 |
Cristi wrote:
Nasty internet comments are the most common thing, deal with it |
That's just a fact. You either got to grow thicker skin, or stay away. What other option is there? I choose to stay away from a lot things myself.
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 11621
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Posted: November 10 2024 at 08:38 |
Hrychu wrote:
| ^and is that an actual argument for not allowing these kinds of discussions? Regardless of human nature everyone has to take responsibility for themselves. I suppose I "can't take the heat" (I'm not really among the most political beings either), so I "protect myself" by staying away. |
You are smart and I appreciate it. But, a lot of folk are much less chill about this stuff. And that creates more potential for dramas on this forum, thus, more clean up work for the moderation to do. |
Missed this one. Thanks:) I think the main person to take resposibility for oneself and one's well being has to be "you", yourself. It's like some of you have to high expectations of mankind or something. People are crazy. 2-3 % of us are actual sociopaths. We can't be controlled. Expecting others to "protect" you from uncomfortable situations that you can easily avoid, is not a smart way to go about it.
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Why not politics?