Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - ELP Underrated?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

ELP Underrated?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4567>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
verslibre View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 16856 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 13:59
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

No, you're right although you and I being around the same age means we were too young to pay too close attention to what was played on FM radio in the 70s. However, as far as I know, those bands were played late at night on prog specialty programs but were probably not part of regular FM radio play; however, ELP were. But I was thinking more of present day and I was also thinking more in terms of prog circles. Old fans of 70s fm rock who were listening to the radio back then and were fans of ELP would probably not know GG, VDGG and Camel unless they were also big prog fans (many were not though).


Now that you mention it, I concur. In the '90s, I listened to Greg Stone's program Stone Trek on Sundays via KLOS 95.5 FM. Greg operated out of KOME in San Jose. Greg played prog and nothing but prog for an hour. That's the one and only time I heard Camel played on the radio ("Lunar Sea" from A Live Record).

Stone Trek's plug was pulled in 1997, but the new station KFOX allowed Greg to resurrect Stone Trek in 2004, and he did it for a few more years till another format change happened. There's a bunch of shows on YouTube.

Greg and his brother Tim also owned a music store in Los Gatos from 1987-94. Apparently, they had a hand in booking Jean-Luc Ponty and some others for gigs near them. Greg passed away in 2022 at the age of 75.
eBay
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 18106 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 14:40
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

No, you're right although you and I being around the same age means we were too young to pay too close attention to what was played on FM radio in the 70s. However, as far as I know, those bands were played late at night on prog specialty programs but were probably not part of regular FM radio play; however, ELP were. But I was thinking more of present day and I was also thinking more in terms of prog circles. Old fans of 70s fm rock who were listening to the radio back then and were fans of ELP would probably not know GG, VDGG and Camel unless they were also big prog fans (many were not though).


Now that you mention it, I concur. In the '90s, I listened to Greg Stone's program Stone Trek on Sundays via KLOS 95.5 FM. Greg operated out of KOME in San Jose. Greg played prog and nothing but prog for an hour. That's the one and only time I heard Camel played on the radio ("Lunar Sea" from A Live Record).

Stone Trek's plug was pulled in 1997, but the new station KFOX allowed Greg to resurrect Stone Trek in 2004, and he did it for a few more years till another format change happened. There's a bunch of shows on YouTube.

Greg and his brother Tim also owned a music store in Los Gatos from 1987-94. Apparently, they had a hand in booking Jean-Luc Ponty and some others for gigs near them. Greg passed away in 2022 at the age of 75.


In the mid to late 80s I remember a program called For Headphones only on WMMR in Philadelphia that played music that sounded good with headphones. It wasn't strictly prog but a lot of it was. 

Then in the late 80s I remember Ed Sciaky from WYSP had a show called the Progressive Music show which I believe was usually on Sunday nights. He played music from "the progressive era" although JA's "embryonic journey" was the theme music (opening and closing). I don't remember him going really, really deep but I do remember him mentioning Camel and I do remember him playing Renaissance. At that time most people weren't aware of any contemporary bands so this was all late 60s and 70s stuff. 
Back to Top
verslibre View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 16856 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 15:57
^Yeah, if I usually didn't hear about a band from a friend or a music mag, I wouldn't know. Nektar I knew of (I forget how) and I bought a couple records on a whim at a shop.
eBay
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 18106 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 16:39
^In this day and age most people probably listen to stuff on youtube to sample stuff to hear what it sounds like. I actually rarely do that since I like to be surprised. I do, however, go by reviews and ratings (I use PA and RYM mostly but sometimes also All Music). I don't go by the radio anymore because quite frankly most current music on the radio sucks. :P
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Online
Points: 27732 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 21:36
ELP used to be played a lot on Radio Caroline which was a 'hippy' radio station loosely portrayed in the film 'The boat that rocked'. That was around early 80's when no one else was playing them. I stopped listening to radio a long time ago. British mainstream radio started sucking big time around the 80's and hasn't stopped since. Commercial radio is just terrible in the UK. Celine Dion and Whitney Houston on endless repeat anyone? Planet Rock radio is okay if you want AC/DC on the hour every hour. They did set up a subscription service for a sister 'prog station' but I've never bothered with it. I think there is more chance I'll discover what I want via streaming and recommendations on PA and Y/T.
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17370 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2024 at 06:31
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
British mainstream radio started sucking big time around the 80's and hasn't stopped since. Commercial radio is just terrible in the UK. 
...

Hi,

Dave Cousins (Strawbs), in his book describes some of the hassles as he was one of the folks trying to open up radio in the UK and started up a few FM stations, though I'm not sure that he was able to make them "progressive", or he likely would not be allowed to do what he did, and get approved.

England, just like a lot of places, is highly controlled by the rich and what they own ... the BBC is a good representative of that, although when it comes to comedy in the 1950's, they wrote the book ... the best ever! But when it came to music, and radio the foo-fake daddies that ran the country wanted to make sure the young generation did not have a voice ... they lost that battle, but they still control the airwaves! So it has become, like the USA, just a two party dictatorship ... you can't do much because the main controls won't allow it.

In the USA, it was not even subtle ... the FCC years back allowed a corporate group to own more than one station in any location, and this meant that one person would control the airwaves in LA, SF, Chicago, and other places. Before, there was a somewhat interesting contest to see who did better and in LA KMET and KLOS fought quite a bit, and did well, until KLOS was sold and then one day, KMET was turned into washing machine music over night with everyone fired. Jim Ladd, was likely paid to not say anything, as he has (to my knowledge) never said anything about it and stuck to the music. But his tastes were not, exactly past the top bands in progressive.

By 2000, I hoped that the Internet would help ... and it did, but it also brought in/over the kind of fans that a lot of FM stations did not like, and they were trolls to the max and sometimes took the energy and comments out of where they should be ... and PA has a wee bit of that issue, when the best folks here, even participate in those areas instead of helping clean them up.

I'm glad that the Internet has, in every way, killed radio ... and I hope that those stations go back to being independent, though I doubt that will happen as the stations are a political point for the corporate group and shamelessly so! The days of the "fairness" are long gone, since the folks running the FCC are the same owners that carry the stations ... they would not vote against themselves.

But I'm not sure the Internet will be that much better until such a time as something new happens as an artistic grouping ... because right now, it is just a bunch of fans, and you know they will not like the new thing, because it takes away their feelings for their favorite numbers and ideas.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 18106 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2024 at 11:00
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

ELP used to be played a lot on Radio Caroline which was a 'hippy' radio station loosely portrayed in the film 'The boat that rocked'. That was around early 80's when no one else was playing them. I stopped listening to radio a long time ago. British mainstream radio started sucking big time around the 80's and hasn't stopped since. Commercial radio is just terrible in the UK. Celine Dion and Whitney Houston on endless repeat anyone? Planet Rock radio is okay if you want AC/DC on the hour every hour. They did set up a subscription service for a sister 'prog station' but I've never bothered with it. I think there is more chance I'll discover what I want via streaming and recommendations on PA and Y/T.

You might like prog radio (progradio.com). It seems to be one of the better prog radio stations out there now even though it's relatively new. There's a lot of the usual suspects on there but also lesser known. The emphasis (besides the classics) seems to be on more recent lesser known bands. ELP came in at number 20 on their chart which is basically a popularity chart. 
Back to Top
Floydoid View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 02 2007
Location: Planet Prog
Status: Offline
Points: 1417 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Floydoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2024 at 12:51
I remember the legendary Radio One DJ John Peel once described ELP 'a waste of talent and electricity'.

On a side note he also described the music of Focus as 'rat's pi$$'.
'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.'
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 18106 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2024 at 15:31
Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

I remember the legendary Radio One DJ John Peel once described ELP 'a waste of talent and electricity'.

On a side note he also described the music of Focus as 'rat's pi$$'.

He and Robert Christgau should have started a band then we could insult their music and see how they like it.
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Online
Points: 27732 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2024 at 21:12
Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

I remember the legendary Radio One DJ John Peel once described ELP 'a waste of talent and electricity'.

On a side note he also described the music of Focus as 'rat's pi$$'.

He also said he cried when he saw their unofficial debut at Plymouth Guild Hall (basically a rehearsal for The Isle Of Wight). Later on in his career he said ELP were not the worst and gave that 'accolade' to Yes. His fellow BBC One DJ Alan Freeman was an ELP fan and Peel said that he was the man who discovered ELP when they were millionaires and turned them into multi millionaires. Peel was not a big fan of the 'mainstream' prog bands although he did promote 'lessor' artists such as Gentle Giant, VDGG and Captain Beefheart on his radio show. He also was one of the prime movers behind punk rock and gave the British Punk a certain legitimacy. Personally I used to listen to Peel's late night radio show a lot when I was about 15. He played a lot of good new stuff. I kinda of liked him!
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17370 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2024 at 06:33
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

...
I could be wrong, but I don't think Gentle Giant, Camel and especially Van der Graaf Generator were played on FM in the States past the '70s (or ever, in VdGG's case). 
...

Hi,

Gentle Giant, Camel and VdGG were played ... HEAVILY ... on Guy Guden's show and was even listed in the station's material when other folks played it. This would be, from January 1974 on, when SPR went on full blast. GG also was huge in NY and Gary Green has talked about it ... I wish I had more information about many of these, but it is all a bit too sketchy and not exactly listed and marked ... I have posted, for example, a listing of a lot of the things Guy played in all of 1974 from the shows that survived ... 9 of them ... and I lost about 4 of these around 1999, when I could not get the shows done on mp3, the tapes were not doing well. (They were almost all 120 TDK's or Maxell's)(Note: shows are not "complete' and averaged 3 to 4 hours). There is a listing of the stuff from 1974 on the SPR thread on PA and I would not compare that listing to anyone's TODAY ... Guy's show did not compromise a whole lot, and though in the early days it has McCartney and a few things here and there, by the end of the year, it was 100% imports ... from his collection and mine, and likely nothing from the station itself.

I think that all 3 bands were listed, and played in LA in that one independent station (can't remember ... KNAC?) ... that made it a point to play the stuff way before the other 2 biggies. I think Camel's album "Mirage" is the one that broke them in LA ... Gentle Giant was played a lot, and I heard it earlier on the PBS station that had a guy in there that was nuts and played all kinds of things there ... I first heard AD2, and many other things there. I think he called himself "Captain Midnight" and I remember him being a true eccentric since he really mixed things up to what I sometimes think is ridiculous, but somehow, it made sense and was fun to hear, though from Santa Barbara, you could only hear the station for a few hours during the night.

Not all stuff listed here was ... nighttime radio ... though we could say that about Guy's shows ... since they all started at midnight, but he was established enough that a few years later he was doing the evening shows sometimes and he would always play some of that stuff ... and then some ... and on Christmas Day 1976 Guy blew out the airwaves during the evening. It got to the point that at least one other goon in the station was also playing all the stuff since none of them wanted Guy to have the credit for putting all of that music on!

AND ... 50 years later, Guy is still on, and playing a wide open selection of things that I'm not sure folks that think "progressive" is all music, can really enjoy and appreciate. He has a heck of a lot of artists that send him materials, and has had that since at least 1980's when he made a point of meeting a lot of these folks and give them a nice ear ... not to mention that Guy's interviews were out of this world far out! I wish that the Robin Williamson interview could be shared ... the knowledge and history and music is ... really superb. There would be other interviews that I am not aware of, but Guy, at very least, usually knew the artist really well, and could easily converse with them. It was not a sort of star thing ... it was a person to person, and it was special. Guy has mentioned before (on his blog) that he had Frank Zappa, Bill Bruford, Brian Ferry, Edgar Froese, and many others ... Frank did not do a promo but you can tell by the other promos, that they visited and had some fun with Guy.

I don't want to say that none of the "progressive" shows out there now are not good, but the formulaic side of it, is not a good thing for showing the music at its best ... and I miss the ideas that first brought "progressive" to our minds and imaginations, and it was not a format, or just a solo ... it was serious music, although we would think that Frank Zappa satirized a lot of the public norms and forms musically. Some of the shows, are noticeably inspired by a band or two ... as an example, one show I call "the son of KC", because of the styles played ... and while I happen to love KC, hearing it all the way to the bathroom and shower and my dreams ... c'mon ... wake up (as XTC would say!). These shows need to be more free form and let go of the idea that the "classics" have to be played ... not as much as they are ... I don't need to be reminded of Yes, Genesis, Rush and anyone else ... I already have them in my heart!

NOTE: Guy never missed a new album by TD, KS, GG, Camel, Roxy Music, VdGG, PH and many other folks ... and played them ALL ... in their entirety, something that most of the progressive shows listed are not capable of doing ... you have to be trusted and kinda known, to do this ... and folks don't leave, like today's audience seems to do if it doesn't sound like something they like. This is important, and it was also a factor in the early days of Guy's shows ... things were played!!! And then some!!! No one does that anymore ... no guts!


Edited by moshkito - September 28 2024 at 07:09
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
verslibre View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 16856 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2024 at 18:19
^Yeah, I remember Guy's show and didn't get back around to editing, but you covered it in much more detail than I could have.
eBay
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17370 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2024 at 20:13
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

^Yeah, I remember Guy's show and didn't get back around to editing, but you covered it in much more detail than I could have.

Hi,

Having been his roomate all the way to the fall of 1979 (might have been 1978!!), when I went to UCSB, was what helped all that stuff ... I merely specify what I saw and remembered and we shared. We had a couple of apartments before the actual opening of the show in January 1974, but I had a hard time making rent a couple of times, which made things tough. Finally we ended up on "Altair 4" for a while, and his show took off.

Lots of fun time.

Lots of crazy times.

What is strange is telling these stories and at least one person, thinks I am making it all up, and that I'm just a story teller!

Tongue Wink LOL Confused


Edited by moshkito - September 29 2024 at 20:16
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Jacob Schoolcraft View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 22 2021
Location: NJ
Status: Offline
Points: 1039 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jacob Schoolcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2024 at 20:16
When the band name ...Emerson Lake & Palmer began circulating in the early 70s it attracted attention not unlike Crosby, Stills & Nash or whatever bands carried it's reputation on the stake of three last names. So for people who didn't know anything about the band such as Lake being in K.C....Emerson from The Nice...and Palmer from Atomic Rooster ...the three last name routine was the selling point.

Regarding those who followed The Nice...they were waiting for a new band. They were waiting for Emerson to make a move. The first ELP album and Tarkus were magical ..and eventually Trilogy and Brain Salad Surgery took the music further.

In the summer of 74' I saw the Welcome Back tour which presented A Quad sound system and in each corner of the stadium were giant speaker cabinets towering up to the ceiling. And so the sound bounced around rotating rapidly between each of the 4 cabinets in the hall. This really brought more people to their shows.

Many years later when I met Greg Lake he was very bitter about ELP and came across condescending or defeating and persistent in saying that Emerson and Palmer were all about ego. He was irritated and negative about the band's history. It was like he was getting a divorce 😃 😀
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Online
Points: 27732 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2024 at 22:15
^  I can remember the prog show on BBC (presented by Alan Freeman) had the occasional custom quad mixes of albums by various artists (not just ELP). It was very odd. ELP were pioneering as always but to the outside world they were all about ego. Never quite sure what to make of Greg Lake. He came across as a bit 'warmer' than the other 2 but then he could be quite quick in his put downs and demanded the highest standards. I reckon that Emerson was very appreciative of his management skills and wanted someone to take on that burden, although financially that was someone else, spiritually Lake was the band leader. Emerson just wanted to do his thing most of the time. Palmer was the kid in the divorce but once he had Asia he could stand on his own feet a bit better. (his own attempt at putting a band together 'PM' was a near total disaster). With Asia he was an 'equal' perhaps more than in ELP where 'Mum and Dad' tended to rule!
Back to Top
Floydoid View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 02 2007
Location: Planet Prog
Status: Offline
Points: 1417 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Floydoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2024 at 00:21
Partly in ELP you had the classic conflict/tension between a composer (Emerson) and a songwriter (Lake). Argent had the same unease between Rod Argent himself (the composer) and Russ Ballard (the songwriter). Both bands put out some terrific albums tho.
'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.'
Back to Top
Starshiper View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 08 2024
Location: Englantic
Status: Offline
Points: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2024 at 01:01
Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

Underrated song

"For You"


Fantastic tune. The Love Beach album is underrated. According to me. I think the main reason LB is so hated is the awful sleeve design, which is uncannily similar to a disco style from the late 1970s. The story about that album probably would be different if an artist like Roger Dean, Patrick Woodroffe, or Matti Klarwein had illustrated the cover for "Love Beach."
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Online
Points: 27732 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2024 at 15:23
Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

Underrated song

"For You"


Fantastic tune. The Love Beach album is underrated. According to me. I think the main reason LB is so hated is the awful sleeve design, which is uncannily similar to a disco style from the late 1970s. The story about that album probably would be different if an artist like Roger Dean, Patrick Woodroffe, or Matti Klarwein had illustrated the cover for "Love Beach."



If you break down the structure of Love Beach then only the first 3 tracks are not typical ELP and aimed at radio. After that it's mostly a traditional ELP album (The fun track followed by the ballad followed by a classical thing and then epic suite). It mainly falls down on details such as the cover that you mention and the tinny weak production. It was salvagable but they were tired and wanted to end the band anyway.
Back to Top
verslibre View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 16856 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2024 at 15:36
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

It mainly falls down on details such as the cover that you mention and the tinny weak production.


And, for the trifecta, the title itself.
eBay
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 14949 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2024 at 07:05

As I see it and if looking at it as an entirety of Progressiveness, artistic creativity, successfulness and being influential, in the '70s, 
ELP was the no 1 of all Prog pioneers, or share it with Yes.


Edited by David_D - October 05 2024 at 15:01
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4567>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.