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PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote This is not based on personal opinion but a kind of consensus powerful enough to have an impact on how these things are generally seen.
When I listen to music, I'm always sceptical towards these sorta general consensuses amongst the powerful experts. It is seldom unbiased, and when there is a clear tendency for gatekeeping in the listenerbase of a particular genre (eg prog rock and classical), those powerful consensuses can be harmful for the musicians, who might subconsciously choose to follow the bogus rules set by some influential gatekeeping snob, instead of trusting their own imagination.
Fine. That's healthy I guess. Consensus is boring and limiting. Some artists like Rembrandt and Bach will always be considered great (while others will stay permanently forgotten and less than great). But in general consensus will change with the times, and that's only one of many reasons it should not be trusted. Regardless of that, I think the opinions of "an expert" with a lot of knowledgde and experience, is of greater value than some random person having neither. Dismissing genuine expertise by default smacks of arrogance.

-Anyway I was primarely explaining another point by using this as an example. I don't have strong opinions about the mentioned singing style or the composer/performer in question. Except that I personally look to other ways of using the human voice - and choose to listen to other composers.

Edited by Saperlipopette! - September 25 2024 at 14:03
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

...
Some artists like Rembrandt and Bach will always be considered great (while others will stay permanently forgotten and less than great). But in general consensus will change with the times, and that's only one of many reasons it should not be trusted. Regardless of that, I think the opinions of "an expert" with a lot of knowledge and experience, is of greater value than some random person having neither. Dismissing genuine expertise by default smacks of arrogance.
...
 

Hi,

There is a side here that is difficult ... and it is the definition of "an expert". I have never considered myself an expert on anything, except what I write and see in my poems and stories. No one else "SAW" that movie in my head to be able to speak about it and I have no issues with comments on it, regardless, even though many of them will be totally out of context and reality and based on that person's preferences. That's not an "expert", because (in general) a true expert usually has a better opinion that encompasses ALL MUSIC, not just something he/she prefers. Which is the main reason why I tend to be somewhat smug/snob about a few folks here and their numeric opinions, so to speak ... they do not involve a lot of other music, because it isn't listed in the numbers.

However, I had a very different upbringing that most folks have not, which does not make an expert, but it does influence one's ability to comment on a lot of the arts ... I happen to like them all and consider them all a valid expression. A house with 40k+ books of Portuguese, Brazilian and Spanish Literature makes that very clear ... there is so much to enjoy and like, and you only chose those three books with the fangled covers?

The same goes for music for me ... I can go back 500/600 years on this, and all of it shines for me.

A very good idea, that is an excellent example of it, is Jensen's The History of Art, and it shows the history of painting/drawing for over 500/600 years, and by the time you take a course in music appreciation and look through all the historic periods of the art, you now know that your appreciation is not about a style, and often stands up by its strength and meaning, rather than its style and lack of chords and notes and solos, as so much stuff here seems to demand.  And I would love to see PA and other sites, take on a more historical element to their music appreciation, so folks know and understand that "Progressive" is but another period within the history of music, in this case "popular music", since things have changed in the last 100 years, now that all music can be heard and this was not the case 100 years ago. This is a very important thing to remember, that most folks, I think, ignore, in favor of their preferred this and that. 

It's the reason why I usually can not specify a preferred this or that ... there are too many things in those 500/600 years that are fantastic ... and a lot of rock music, or jazz music, is not exactly impressive within that context.
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siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

As far as Rypdal goes, true there are PURE jazz albums with no rock but he definitely had albums with rock integrated into the mix.
If we're talking solo/bandleader albums: what are his PURE jazz albums again? I can't say I've ever come across any such album.


Non-rock i what i should've written. Pure jazz is definitely not his thing

I was referring to his 90s string of third stream albums which is a mix of jazz and classical

Some of his collaborative efforts such as "The Sea II" are rock free as well and are closer to pure jazz with some ambient elements thrown in

Albums like "Double Concerto: 5th Symphony" are more classical than jazz with no rock elements

You are correct that the majority of his albums have rock elements though

Whether these are fusion or not is up for debate

The whole jazz rock vs jazz fusion is a sticky topic for sure ;)




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Starshiper View Drop Down
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Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

There are a number of "proggy" jazz fusion albums in
the ECM catalog; for instance, Solstice by Ralph Towner (in PA as well) perhaps sounds more "proggy" in the typical sense of the term than any record by Terje Rypdal, but hey, you know what? "Proggy" doesn't mean prog... Ouch


Ralph Towner is a beast. Ana comes 22 years after Solstice and may well be his finest hour.
I have a fondness for Ralph Towner's "Blue Sun" album, on which he performs all the instruments. I also thoroughly appreciate his work with his home band, Oregon. The Oregon tracks that seem the most "proggy" to me are my favourites. But it's definitely not prog.
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

As far as Rypdal goes, true there are PURE jazz albums with no rock but he definitely had albums with rock integrated into the mix.
If we're talking solo/bandleader albums: what are his PURE jazz albums again? I can't say I've ever come across any such album.


Non-rock i what i should've written. Pure jazz is definitely not his thing

I was referring to his 90s string of third stream albums which is a mix of jazz and classical

Some of his collaborative efforts such as "The Sea II" are rock free as well and are closer to pure jazz with some ambient elements thrown in

Albums like "Double Concerto: 5th Symphony" are more classical than jazz with no rock elements

You are correct that the majority of his albums have rock elements though

Whether these are fusion or not is up for debate

The whole jazz rock vs jazz fusion is a sticky topic for sure ;)
Rypdal's often-ignored experimental, very ambient-like fusion album "Descendre" is one that I adore.
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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^That's some sort of ambient fusion for sure. Close in spirit to Rypdal's own "Odessey", but gentler. Nowhere near something I would think of as pure jazz.

If I were to compare early Terje Rypdal with other artists, they would be found among his contemporaries. Like Weather Report's two first releases, all of the Mwandishi-related albums, and well despite my previous comments John McLaughlin/MU... + at his proggiest: 73-74-era King Crimson (also some of the other ECM-fusion albums)

Finally Rypdal's approach, like everyone just listed, is in depth to Electric Miles. Rypdal's fusion of styles in the early to mid-1970's fit nicely within a similar musical landscape as the others I just mentioned. Miles influence on Jazz Rock Fusion is everywhere. It still is. As he practially changed the direction of jazz, and gave birth to this sort of musical fusion, it's not really all that relevant whether someone do not include him in their understanding of Jazz Rock/fusion (I know for many Miles doesn't "rock enough" - or they find his electric era too abstract etc...). Terje's first track on his ECM debut titled Keep It Like That - Tight is a direct quote heard whispered by Davis to the band seven and a half minutes into "Bitches Brew"'s title track.

Like those I just compared him with, jazz is always there in spirit. But with the exception of KC, Rypdal's own output is arguably less pure jazz than the rest of them.

Apart from a couple of tracks on his charmingly messy pre-ECM debut "Bleak House", his contributions to something resembling "pure jazz" is always as a guest/sideman.
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

There is a side here that is difficult ... and it is the definition of "an expert".
I have no real objections to what you wrote in the rest of your post.

We don't need any definition of "an expert". You will - or should hopefully know whenever that someone worth paying attention to reveals themselves. Hopefully we all encounter people on our way and in our lives like that. It doesn't have to be a physical meeting, so it's really more about allowing it to happen. Those who can both help open and change your mind, guide you into the direction you were always supposed to take, but didn't know just yet. Big lifechanging events or just minor little things. It doesn't matter. It's a humbling learning experience, and part of how we grow.

If that made any sense (it does to me).    
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^ You sure talk a lot about humility Smile
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

^That's some sort of ambient fusion for sure. Close in spirit to Rypdal's own "Odessey", but gentler. Nowhere near something I would think of as pure jazz.

If I were to compare early Terje Rypdal with other artists, they would be found among his contemporaries. Like Weather Report's two first releases, all of the Mwandishi-related albums, and well despite my previous comments John McLaughlin/MU... + at his proggiest: 73-74-era King Crimson (also some of the other ECM-fusion albums)

Finally Rypdal's approach, like everyone just listed, is in depth to Electric Miles. Rypdal's fusion of styles in the early to mid-1970's fit nicely within a similar musical landscape as the others I just mentioned. Miles influence on Jazz Rock Fusion is everywhere. It still is. As he practially changed the direction of jazz, and gave birth to this sort of musical fusion, it's not really all that relevant whether someone do not include him in their understanding of Jazz Rock/fusion (I know for many Miles doesn't "rock enough" - or they find his electric era too abstract etc...). Terje's first track on his ECM debut titled Keep It Like That - Tight is a direct quote heard whispered by Davis to the band seven and a half minutes into "Bitches Brew"'s title track.

Like those I just compared him with, jazz is always there in spirit. But with the exception of KC, Rypdal's own output is arguably less pure jazz than the rest of them.

Apart from a couple of tracks on his charmingly messy pre-ECM debut "Bleak House", his contributions to something resembling "pure jazz" is always as a guest/sideman.
I agree that Terje Rypdal's stuff in general is not too dissimilar from Miles' fusion from the early seventies. That kind of jazz fusion, however, lacks the organic structure that jazz-rock typically has when it comes to prog. Instead, it floats away. Rypdal's guitar work avoids acquiring shape and floating away without the embodied solo or necessary structure for being jazz-rock as part of prog, even in his most "proggy" moments, like on the 1978 Rypdal/Vitous/DeJohnette track "Seasons," where Rypdal brilliantly deploys a guitar synthesiser.
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

I agree that Terje Rypdal's stuff in general is not too dissimilar from Miles' fusion from the early seventies. That kind of jazz fusion, however, lacks the organic structure that jazz-rock typically has when it comes to prog. Rypdal's guitar work avoids acquiring shape and floating away without the embodied solo or necessary structure for being jazz-rock as part of prog, even in his most "proggy" moments
Rypdal's less structured fusion, like Miles himself, Mwandishi and many more - is acknowledged by PA, myself and many of us - as a natural part of Jazz Rock Fusion. As Miles more or less created what we're discussing, he also made the some of the rules for what this music is - and can be. Not you. You're free to think of it, and decide for yourself in whatever way you do. Just don't expect me to agree with you. The sound of Jazz Rock Fusion in 1969-1972 was generally more open and less structured than most of what came after. That's my favorite approach, and a valid approach. There's plenty of seemingly "shapeless, floating music" found on Prog Archives that qualifies as related to prog enough for inclusion.
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ You sure talk a lot about humility Smile
Haha do I? I guess I don't strike anyone here as particularly humble or modest. I can be. Not so much in this context, and probably less the older I get. But have I ever talked about it prior to this?

Edited by Saperlipopette! - September 26 2024 at 02:39
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

I agree that Terje Rypdal's stuff in general is not too dissimilar from Miles' fusion from the early seventies. That kind of jazz fusion, however, lacks the organic structure that jazz-rock typically has when it comes to prog. Rypdal's guitar work avoids acquiring shape and floating away without the embodied solo or necessary structure for being jazz-rock as part of prog, even in his most "proggy" moments
Rypdal's less structured fusion, like Miles himself, Mwandishi and many more - is acknowledged by PA, myself and many of us - as a natural part of Jazz Rock Fusion. As Miles more or less created what we're discussing, he also made the some of the rules for what this music is - and can be. Not you. You're free to think of it, and decide for yourself in whatever way you do. Just don't expect me to agree with you. The sound of Jazz Rock Fusion in 1969-1972 was generally more open and less structured than most of what came after. That's my favorite approach, and a valid approach. There's plenty of seemingly "shapeless, floating music" found on Prog Archives that qualifies as related to prog enough for inclusion.
The genius Brazilian artist Egberto Gismonti is currently on my mind. Even though he achieved no less "proggy" fusion than both Rypdal and the aforementioned Towner, he didn't appear to be lucky enough for inclusion in the PA database.




Now that we've discussed the ECM ambient-style fusion acts, let's relax and enjoy some real jazz-rock played as prog music.
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

The
genius Brazilian artist Egberto Gismonti is currently on my mind. Even
though he achieved no less "proggy" fusion than both Rypdal and the
aforementioned Towner, he didn't appear to be lucky enough for inclusion in the PA database.
There's literally hundreds more 1970's Jazz Rock Fusion-guys like him out there. Anyone who's followed the Progressive Review blog knows that there's seemingly no end to the yet to be discovered JRF-bands from around the world - in that decade alone. I'm not going to suggest any of them for inclusion. It probably doesn't have much impact on their non-extisting careers (if they are still alive) whether they are lucky enough for inclusion or not. It's really quite coincidental who's on PA and who is not.
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ You sure talk a lot about humility Smile
Haha do I? I guess I don't strike anyone here as particularly humble or modest. I can be. Not so much in this context, and probably less the older I get. But have I ever talked about it prior to this?

I was only talking about this thread, where you for the most part assume a "I know things, you don't" stance, yet at the same time you also talk a lot about humility. I just find it intriguing Smile 
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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^Yes. Everyone else should listen to me! That's real humility:). But really; I talk about it a lot? As in many more times than in the reply to Moshkito's "expert-difficulties"?
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

^Yes. Everyone else should listen to me! That's real humility:). But really; I talk about it a lot? As in many more times than in the reply to Moshkito's "expert-difficulties"?

Hi,

I come from a very high level of literature at home. And in meeting so many professors from the Portuguese and Spanish areas in various places, you learn quickly who "knows" and who "talks" ... it's not the same thing, but not suggesting that someone who talks does not "know" .... and in the end, you can see the person behind it and ... sometimes, it's not pleasant. 

I try hard not to be like that ... I left the academic life behind because of professors that did not like the idea that my father was in charge of a department, and those folks probably thought that I got in ... by his hand in it, which was not true. 1st, I went to UCSB AFTER dad passed away. 2nd, I broke the mold because I was not interested in Portuguese, Brazilian or Spanish Literature  ... I was more interested in Theater, because I could not do Film with my bad English ... heck, the first paper I wrote, on Ibsen for a professor Egan, he commented that I had really good ideas, but he could tell that expressing them clearly was an issue ... mom, "punished" me for that ... "I'll pay for your studies if you go to Portuguese studies" ... and I could not do so ... Film and Theater and Music, were my love ... not the ugliness around it! I ended up my Uni years with something like 20K in debt (1982) which took me 25 years to pay off.

In the "arts" ... expertise, is interesting, but also different. In general, it shows an area that has some amount of history and appreciation for a lot of the arts ... but here, the expertise tends to ignore the social milieu that they were a part of ... the sort of famous cafe that was in Paris for many years in Literature ... and how it helped or not. But I wonder how much of this is all ignored because everyone thinks of everything as a pop song that doesn't matter in the long run of music history ... and I can hear a PA Admin that once stated ... it's all pop music! 

I merely think that there are many things that are beyond pop music, but accepting that makes people think I am condescending ... which is untrue and sad. I think of it all as an art ... 

I don't worry about how I come across as much as I probably should but I'm not exactly sitting here with a scale and measuring folks ... that's not my job, so to speak. However, it is really tough to deal with someone that thinks his/her opinion is the law and that's that ... to me that is not an expert, per term, but someone I would not exactly listen to. It's not a "difficulty" at all ... but it's like someone saying they see God and all they are coming from is just a dream here and there ... it's not quite a good way to validate the deity at all, but in many places, some of those folks are given the "right" to speak for God ... and I guess that bothers me some ... not that I am exactly agnostic ... I'm in between I would say though I tend to think like Robert Monroe that what we consider "God" is the collective feel of our earth's folks, not the reality inside the universe. 

Here, I'm not sure that any of us think of ourselves as experts at all ... and then you see a thread, or posting that is crazy, and really ... out of touch ... and it's hard to not think askew about that ... even when some folks consider me tough ... but many of them don't even bother reading, anyway, otherwise a comment about the thread would be much better than the one/two word comment. 
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We're all experts in knowing what we think we like LOL
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

We're all experts in knowing what we think we like LOL

Hi,

Let me light up the pipe and check this out ... seems deep to me! Embarrassed

(love it ... thx)
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^ It was a Deepity. Wink
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Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

...1978 Rypdal/Vitous/DeJohnette track "Seasons," where Rypdal brilliantly deploys a guitar synthesiser.


Another winner. Beautiful music, the compulsion to convince others its worthwhile notwithstanding.
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