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PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?

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cstack3 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 20:28
I don't care what other sites say, I really enjoy the intelligence and banter among everyone on PA!!  I've learned a great deal, have been introduced to many bands I never would have found on my own, and feel as though I've contributed. 

The Prog Music journey, for musicians (I'm one), fans and family, is a very personal experience involving discovery, excitement and, yes, a bit of risk on occasion.   I like being here, where the boundaries can be pushed and definitions have some "give." 

"Yes, Virginia, Jazz-Rock Fusion is Prog."  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 04:38
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

I don't care what other sites say, I really enjoy the intelligence and banter among everyone on PA!!  I've learned a great deal, have been introduced to many bands I never would have found on my own, and feel as though I've contributed. 

The Prog Music journey, for musicians (I'm one), fans and family, is a very personal experience involving discovery, excitement and, yes, a bit of risk on occasion.   I like being here, where the boundaries can be pushed and definitions have some "give." 

"Yes, Virginia, Jazz-Rock Fusion is Prog."  

I understand indeed what you're saying, as it's also very personal for not so few of us what to consider as being Progressive Rock. Smile


Edited by David_D - September 20 2024 at 05:16
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cstack3 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 06:00
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

I don't care what other sites say, I really enjoy the intelligence and banter among everyone on PA!!  I've learned a great deal, have been introduced to many bands I never would have found on my own, and feel as though I've contributed. 

The Prog Music journey, for musicians (I'm one), fans and family, is a very personal experience involving discovery, excitement and, yes, a bit of risk on occasion.   I like being here, where the boundaries can be pushed and definitions have some "give." 

"Yes, Virginia, Jazz-Rock Fusion is Prog."  

I understand indeed what you're saying, as it's also very personal for not so few of us what to consider as being Progressive Rock. Smile

Do you then consider JRF as a part of prog?  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 06:11
Sure. Everything is prog now, including the Archies. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 06:23
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Do you then consider JRF as a part of prog?

I consider JRF as a part of progressive music - even I've always loved not so little of Jazz-Rock/Fusion, and today, JRF may be my second most favourite sub-genre of progressive music, next after Symphonic Prog (including RPI).



Edited by David_D - September 20 2024 at 08:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 07:04
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Do you then consider JRF as a part of prog?  

JRF and Prog intersect, and because of that it makes sense to include JRF. But obviously not all JRF releases are Prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bardberic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 07:57
I agree with its inclusion here.

Incidentally, I'm building a genre tree and have jazz fusion under progressive music, and jazz rock under jazz fusion and rock. Not always (nor typically) "true" progressive rock, but is an expression of more artistic popular forms of music in a general sense (eg, progressive music, the umbrella for prog rock, prog metal, prog pop, etc.)

Edited by bardberic - September 20 2024 at 07:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 08:02
^ If it's an actual tree (where all elements have only one parent), I'd like to see how you square rock/metal and prog/non-prog ... I think it's a major challenge Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 09:04
Originally posted by bardberic bardberic wrote:

I agree with its inclusion here.

Incidentally, I'm building a genre tree and have jazz fusion under progressive music, and jazz rock under jazz fusion and rock. Not always (nor typically) "true" progressive rock, but is an expression of more artistic popular forms of music in a general sense (eg, progressive music, the umbrella for prog rock, prog metal, prog pop, etc.)

It'd be interesting for me to see which genres you'll include as progressive music, as I certainly find it to be something of a challenge to define this umbrella - even I have some ideas.


Edited by David_D - September 20 2024 at 09:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 10:22
I think most any genre can have progressive music within it, and of course genres can overlap and fuse with other genres, which in itself can be very progressive.

I commonly include "art", "experimental" and "progressive" music together.

A little digression... I had wanted to make a site years ago that focused on modern (say 1950 up) art, experimental and progressive music. This would include modern classical, art music, electronic, folkly, rocky, art pop..., post-punk jazz and jazzy music and more, more, more.. Sun Ra would be there, so would Stockhausen, so would King Crimson, Laurie Anderson, Velvet Underground etc. etc. If it weren't for this forum, I would find PA too limited in scope, despite its great variety, to maintain my interest for all of these years.

By the way, and I am expressing myself badly, the fusion of genres is such a common characteristic of Progressive Rock that including Jazz-Rock Fusion especially seems a good fit (but not all need apply). Already taking jazz qualities if common in well recognised and more stereotypical in style symph rock bands. And many jazz bands took a similar route by incorporating rock and other genres.

Basically as Mike said, I say that Prog and JRF intersect, and they overlap. It all is or all isn't presents a false dichotomy. There's a spectrum etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 10:36
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I think most any genre can have progressive music within it, and of course genres can overlap and fuse with other genres, which in itself can be very progressive.

I commonly include "art", "experimental" and "progressive" music together.

A little digression... I had wanted to make a site years ago that focused on modern (say 1950 up) art, experimental and progressive music. This would include modern classical, art music, electronic, folkly, rocky, art pop..., post-punk jazz and jazzy music and more, more, more.. Sun Ra would be there, so would Stockhausen, so would King Crimson, Laurie Anderson, Velvet Underground etc. etc. If it weren't for this forum, I would find PA too limited in scope, despite its great variety, to maintain my interest for all of these years.

By the way, and I am expressing myself badly, the fusion of genres is such a common characteristic of Progressive Rock that including Jazz-Rock Fusion especially seems a good fit (but not all need apply). Already taking jazz qualities if common in well recognised and more stereotypical in style symph rock bands. And many jazz bands took a similar route by incorporating rock and other genres.

Basically as Mike said, I say that Prog and JRF intersect, and they overlap. It all is or all isn't presents a false dichotomy. There's a spectrum etc.
Slightly off-topic: are the terms jazz-rock and fusion in the title of that PA' section listed as synonyms or as similar but separate subgenres?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 10:44
I've never been on the JR/T team nor have I seen it said what the derivation was, but I see it as denoting a separation, and I see it as related, and overlapping. Of course PA does it with a few categories that have relations. Jazz Fusion that incorporates rock and Jazz-Rock are commonly treated as different entities and that category includes both.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 12:49
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Do you then consider JRF as a part of prog?  

JRF and Prog intersect, and because of that it makes sense to include JRF. But obviously not all JRF releases are Prog.

I could agree with that, BUT the actual definition of "prog" still evades me.  

Is it musical virtuosity, above & beyond what conventional, blues-based rock employs?  If that were the case, then the blazing guitar solo in "Rock Around the Clock" would qualify!!  

I really must confess that the definition of "prog" continues to evade me.  However, I know what I like. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 14:34
^ Ok, here's yet another attempt to define "prog" in a short paragraph:

"prog takes conventional music of a given genre and expands on it in terms of musical prowess, experimentation, grandeur, complexity, improvisation, lyrical depth etc.. usually in more than one of these dimensions."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 14:52
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

"prog takes conventional music of a given genre and expands on it in terms of musical prowess, experimentation, grandeur, complexity, improvisation, lyrical depth etc.. usually in more than one of these dimensions."


I can think of a few neo bands that totally missed the mark on "usually (in) more than one of these dimensions."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 15:17
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Ok, here's yet another attempt to define "prog" in a short paragraph:

"prog takes conventional music of a given genre and expands on it in terms of musical prowess, experimentation, grandeur, complexity, improvisation, lyrical depth etc.. usually in more than one of these dimensions."

But what about electronic prog, which created new musical forms out of nothing?  I'm thinking of Tangerine Dream specifically.  

I suppose one could quibble whether it should be called "rock," but the use of rock instrumentation would seem to allow for it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 15:19
Doesn't capture a lot of avant / zeuhl euther.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 15:43
^ I was only taking a casual swing at the definition, feel free to expand Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 15:46
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Ok, here's yet another attempt to define "prog" in a short paragraph:

"prog takes conventional music of a given genre and expands on it in terms of musical prowess, experimentation, grandeur, complexity, improvisation, lyrical depth etc.. usually in more than one of these dimensions."


But what about electronic prog, which created new musical forms out of nothing?  I'm thinking of Tangerine Dream specifically.  

I suppose one could quibble whether it should be called "rock," but the use of rock instrumentation would seem to allow for it.  


Experimentation, first and foremostly! That was a completely new thing. Then grandeur and complexity followed, though some of the fandom still prefer the earlier spaced-out Dream.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2024 at 19:58
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

"prog takes conventional music of a given genre and expands on it in terms of musical prowess, experimentation, grandeur, complexity, improvisation, lyrical depth etc.. usually in more than one of these dimensions."
IMHO that's simply a definition of experimental music.

Prog, and especially prog rock imo isn't just that. What for me separates prog rock from any other kind of experimental rock music is that in addition to the complex and unconventional elements, in has to in some way also reference the progressive rock classics.
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