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Victorian Prog?

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Faul_McCartney View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Faul_McCartney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Victorian Prog?
    Posted: September 03 2024 at 10:01
Next to Pink Floyd, Genesis is perhaps one of the most imitated prog bands. The thing is, none of these "sounds like Genesis" bands seem to imitate what it is that draws me to Genesis. I want to find more bands with that Victorian sound, a mix of hauntingly dark folk and heaviness. I'm looking for more "Nursery Cryme" than SEBTP, so synths should be kept at a minimum. To be clear, I like Marillion and IQ enough, but that is not what I'm looking for here!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2024 at 11:45
Puppet Show - The Tale of Woe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Faul_McCartney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2024 at 22:18
Gave it a listen. A step in the right direction I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2024 at 22:54
Struggling a bit with this as to me you've just described Van Der Graaf Generator. The only thing I can link to the idea of something 'Victorian' (other than work houses and better plumbing) were the series of murders in the East End of London by the so called 'Jack The Ripper' around the turn of the 20th century. That very dark hell is well encompassed by The Plague Of Lighthouse Keepers. Genesis were 'pussies' by comparison more embracing an English Music Hall tradition and at times drew humour from Monty Python. They were very awkward public school kids who were frightened of girls. Soundwise Trespass is more pastoral than really dark (excepting The Knife which drew inspiration from Keith Emerson's adaption of the Dave Brubeck track Blue Rondo A La Turk which was shortened to Rondo on the The Nice's debut album). Nursery Crime was not a well recorded or well produced album and neither was Foxtrot. They are slightly muddy and not as good as albums like Tarkus and Fragile that were coming out at the time (production wise). VDGG stripped down their sound and avoided synths so that the hellish themes that Hamill was so keen on could be fully realised (at least that is my take on it)
As an aside Big Big Train did a track called Victorian Brickwork but I don't think that is what you are looking for as it's too 'clean' sounding. Modern prog bands have a clean sound as you mention. The scandanavian bands are doing the retro thing and so have a more 'authentic sound' but most are leaning more towards Yes. Wobbler are the obvious example. It's something to look at perhaps (?)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2024 at 03:33

Spring Song by Gryphon instantly teleports me to Victorian England!

Edited by Hrychu - September 11 2024 at 03:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2024 at 04:19
Originally posted by Faul_McCartney Faul_McCartney wrote:

Next to Pink Floyd, Genesis is perhaps one of the most imitated prog bands. The thing is, none of these "sounds like Genesis" bands seem to imitate what it is that draws me to Genesis. I want to find more bands with that Victorian sound, a mix of hauntingly dark folk and heaviness. I'm looking for more "Nursery Cryme" than SEBTP, so synths should be kept at a minimum. To be clear, I like Marillion and IQ enough, but that is not what I'm looking for here!


I feel the same way.  The Nursery Cryme vibe drew me to Genesis.Wink   Advent's Silent Sentinel isn't in the same cottage where the Nursery Cryme was committed, but it's next door. 






Edited by omphaloskepsis - September 11 2024 at 04:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2024 at 04:35
I don't know if "Victorian" is the right word here or helpful describing the Genesis sound.  Confused 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2024 at 06:16
K² - Book Of The Dead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2024 at 06:45
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

I don't know if "Victorian" is the right word here or helpful describing the Genesis sound.  Confused 

Hi,

Agreed

But honestly ... none of it that might be considered such, is sexy at all ... in fact some of it is rather boring, at times, though there are some nice things. The "Victorian" idea was a serious social change of things, as opposed to a lot of music, Genesis included, where things are more suggestive than they are meaningful. In this sense I tend to think of Genesis as a bit too pompous for my tastes ... there were better "theatrical" works out there that were much more interesting that never got the MM attention for you! AND ... above all ... that time period was MASSIVE in theater and film from a VISUAL perspective, something that is ignored here many times.

Gryphon might be the more interesting group in this area of mentions, and I wonder if they got appreciated AFTER their music was used on the WEST END in a Shakespeare production. However, I think that their work is probably well appreciated in some academic areas in England, which did not help with selling their records, but them the appreciation for their music. I kinda think that in their later days they became a lot more conventional than classical which they displayed before. Still not quite sexy in my book!


Edited by moshkito - September 12 2024 at 06:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AJ Junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2024 at 12:31
Try Wobbler or Harmonium 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Faul_McCartney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2024 at 14:06
Thanks everyone for your replies!
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Struggling a bit with this as to me you've just described Van Der Graaf Generator. 
VDGG are one of my favorites. There's definitely a similar sound between them, Genesis, and Sinfield era King Crimson. 

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

I feel the same way.  The Nursery Cryme vibe drew me to Genesis.Wink   Advent's Silent Sentinel isn't in the same cottage where the Nursery Cryme was committed, but it's next door.
 
Thank you! This is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for! It's more Gentle Giant than Genesis I think, but it's got the right "vibe".

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

I don't know if "Victorian" is the right word here or helpful describing the Genesis sound.  Confused 
I would agree that it doesn't describe Genesis as a whole, but Nursery Cryme is dripping with victoriana. They even name drop the period in "Return of the Giant Hogweed"!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mellotronwave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2024 at 15:54


Edited by mellotronwave - September 17 2024 at 14:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2024 at 07:27
Originally posted by mellotronwave mellotronwave wrote:

Even if I’m not of british origin, the Victorian art of prog of the 70’s has always attracted/amazed me (the small drawings that adorn Nursery Cryme (inside and outside of the cover, the art of Foxtrot as well as the characters of ToTT, not to mention the reference to Emily Brontë ( 1828/1848 (Withering heights, issued 1847) from the Wind and Wuthering Lp).
...
Hi,

Sometimes I wonder how much of this is simply what you read and study in school, and how "average" it could/should/might be considered. This is not to say that Bronte ... suggests Victorian anything ... her time was up way before the Victorian days, and the sisters would be a really bad example for the majority of the Victorian anything where women had more freedoms than what so much literature shown tends to suggest ... and it likely helped women get their vote and stature later.

Originally posted by mellotronwave mellotronwave wrote:

...
The Madhatter logo is a colorized version of a John Teniel** 's original illustration in the first edition of Lewis*** Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland (1865)/Through the looking glass (1871).
...
*Victorian era (1837/1901)
** Sir John Teniel (1820/1914)
*** Lewis Caroll (1832/1898)

I have reservations about these folks ... none of them really represent the Victorian era in the same way that it is "known" ... which in terms of literature would be materials that fit a lot more later in the 19th Century ... and the likes of the Pre-Raphaelites would fit this era way better than the stuff mentioned here ... but I think we're being too selective and not open minded ... I might not be exactly correct (and I'm not the scholar on these things) ... but in my book the Victorian era is known for a lot more than just a few books that were, essentially, out of time. Lewis Carroll's book, I tended to think was a styled idea based on drugs and what I often think of a copy of Edgar Allan Poe, without the "seriousness" ... although I tend to think that it only fits in the Victorian era because of the young girl thing ... which is joked and poked at senseless. 

Interesting thought and idea ... honestly I am not sure how to respond to it, since the majority of "Victorian" anything is often related to the age of freedoms in England and the sexy literature that is known to be "pornography", a lot of which has much more "history" about it, than the majority of quasi anything literature.


Edited by moshkito - September 17 2024 at 07:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2024 at 07:41
Originally posted by Faul_McCartney Faul_McCartney wrote:

Next to Pink Floyd, Genesis is perhaps one of the most imitated prog bands. The thing is, none of these "sounds like Genesis" bands seem to imitate what it is that draws me to Genesis. I want to find more bands with that Victorian sound, a mix of hauntingly dark folk and heaviness. I'm looking for more "Nursery Cryme" than SEBTP, so synths should be kept at a minimum. To be clear, I like Marillion and IQ enough, but that is not what I'm looking for here!

You'd better look/search inside the Prog Folk section at bands like Comus, Tudor Lodge, Gryphon, and more of that kind of stuff.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2024 at 13:04
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

...
You'd better look/search inside the Prog Folk section at bands like Comus, Tudor Lodge, Gryphon, and more of that kind of stuff.
...

Hi,

I wonder, however, how much of all this was more of a sequence and continuation of England's incredible large history of folk music and how so many bands, have continually replay-ed so many pieces in new styles and ways. 

In that sense, the English history of folk music is so huge as to be really difficult to consider any of those bands listed as "original", being that in most cases they are simply repeating the ideas with, or without the lyrics. Gryphon is interesting, but if you change the title of each and every piece and its covers, all of a sudden I am not sure that folks would consider it Victorian, or folkish. 

At this time, I am not familiar enough with Comus and Tudor Lodge. But it's not hard to realize how long this history is, and how well remembered it is, when you hear a Fairport Convention or Steeleye Span do a piece that is more than a hundred years old ... Matty Groves, seems to have come from the days of Shakespeare, for example.

Stranger still is the grouping of "Prog-Folk" being mostly stuff that has such a huge history ....

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2024 at 17:32
Some songs:

John Holden "Flying Train"




Galahad "Sleepers 2012"




Iamthemorning "Salute"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2024 at 19:16
Have you heard the Watch? Very much like early Genesis. Also, definitely check out Geese and the Ghost by Anthony Phillips if you haven't already. I think that would be right up your alley. Good thread topic. I'll be paying attention myself.

I would also check out Tiger Moth Tales and the fist Steve Hackett solo album Voyage of the Acolyte. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - September 18 2024 at 19:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 00:09
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Geese and the Ghost by Anthony Phillips
Nah. Rather than with the Victorian era, which requires the grand orchestration and showy pattern that could be associated with it, the music on "The Geese and the Ghost" album is quite mellow prog-rock featuring acoustic instrumentation that evokes a pastoral atmosphere reminiscent of the Elizabethan era (e.g., the album's central piece, "Henry: Portraits from Tudor Times").

What about Clive Nolan & Oliver Wakeman's concept album "The Hound of the Baskervilles" based on Arthur Conan Doyle's novel? I'm aware that the OP said something about synthesisers; however, creatively played, soaring synths are just perfect to evoke the pompous yet somewhat twisted character of the Victorian era.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 00:47
Of course, Rick Wakeman has nothing to do with Genesis, but his album(s) featuring the iconic Jules Verne theme screams with all its grandeur as Victorian prog and certainly deserves an honourable mention!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 00:58
Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Of course, Rick Wakeman has nothing to do with Genesis, but his album(s) featuring the iconic Jules Verne theme screams with all its grandeur as Victorian prog and certainly deserves an honourable mention!

Jules Verne was a French writer. 
I'm confused. ConfusedSmile

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