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Do the Beatles get too much credit.. |
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moshkito 
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17497 |
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 Posted: September 14 2024 at 07:55 |
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Hi, I imagine that it might be worth it, since almost all the Beatle albums released in America were taken from masters found in a garbage bin in NY, or London, or Paris! They were terrible. I discovered this around 1972/1073 when out of curiosity and the fact that the cover was very different from the American version for the album MEDDLE by PF ... I also got the Sgt. Pepper's import ... and it was clean, and you could hear all the bits and pieces in the background. The same thing was STILL visible in 1974 with DSOTM, that was taken from another trash bin somewhere ... the background, and bits and pieces under it, were downplayed and were intentionally suppressed .... and I like to joke that it was a FCC somebody in America that wanted to clean up America ... and started with the words, not the smells of the bad rerecording to hide many details. I immediately bought the import ... and of course ... the posters were different and the sound of it was clear and the background bits were good enough to make a complete story on their own ... which, of course, later gave birth to THE WALL ... which for me is about all the bits they ever used. So, in some ways, hearing a clean mix of the stuff, possibly in their original way, instead of another copy, would be kinda neat ... it won't make us feel any better about it all, but it will show the history of the Beatles with a lot more beauty than the versions in almost all of those albums that were, basically, ready for the AM radio as singles ... in Mono ... so to speak! Hearing it in pure stereo, instead of cardboard stereo wold make this a much more valuable purchase. But that price leaves me out ... better things for me to get on Bandcamp!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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moshkito
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Posted: September 14 2024 at 07:43 |
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Hi, It's true, though ... it helped fuel and reinvent the wheels of our minds that were dormant? Specially so with Bob Dylan and then The Doors?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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SteveG
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Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20604 |
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Posted: September 14 2024 at 04:44 |
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Like many old artifacts, their importance has to be measured in the context of their times. Sure, we can say that the Beatles influenced many prog rock or art rock bands of that era. But the fact is that progressive music has moved on since then, particularly with advant garde and RIO. That's a great step away from pyshecdelic/space rock and 70's symphonic progressive rock. The Beatles did not influence all progressive rock music, with the exception of Revolution 9, I suppose. Lol.
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Catcher10
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VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17845 |
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Posted: September 13 2024 at 15:44 |
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Another money grab by your Fab Four, you all hurry up and pre-order For Nov release.........USD300.00
  Edited by Catcher10 - September 13 2024 at 15:45 |
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moshkito
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Posted: September 11 2024 at 08:10 |
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Hi, For me, the time and place has not been kind to a lot of music from the 60's, up to and including The Beatles ... heck, in Brazil, we bought "Aftermath" and then the "Between the Buttons", before we ever got any Beatles, which kinda tells you which songs the Brazilian radio at the time was playing ... we did not get a Beatles album until Sgt Pepper's I think (and here in the USA) ... not even sure of that. Both the Stones and the Beatles were a huge influence in Brazilian music, although I think that Brazil was more centered on its own music than what a rock band could bring in ... the Brazilian music was well represented on radio and I don't mean Sergio Mendes at all ( he helped folks around the world get to meet/know some Brazilian music) ... I mean the real thing!!! and both the Stones and Beatles were quite far and away from that grassroots music, which was not just a regional something or other, like things are in America that really hurts how to interpret American music ... there wasn't such a thing, that I can remember or seen, in Brazil, though I think that some folks might add to my knowledge of it. When we came to America, in October 1965, it was very noticeable that The Beatles were quite a trip on radio and then some, specially in Madison with its FM radio signal blowing out the AM radio folks making fun and bad comments about the new generation and the "hippies" in general ... to them it was all dirty and the music was included in it, but then ... Sgt Pepper's hit, and those 2 stations in Madison ate merde for breakfast, lunch and dinner ... and they started to do gown really fast, specially when they started saying bad things about The Doors, Hendrix and Janis .... and now the "importance" was kinda set some, however, the Beatles breaking up and not getting along, made things really sad and pathetic, and then the solo albums by at John and George, were not that good, and in essence brought their music down to a very pedestrian level that hurt ... The Beatles would never really get the appreciation they deserved, and it was at that time that I really think that it was George Martin that helped make them important, and though I would not criticize his not being on the last couple of albums, it showed ... George Martin has steered into something that the folks now wanted to get away from ... and this change made for a confused fan base, which we can see here ... but the quality of the production and albums up until then, was enough to give ua a nice touch and idea ... though we don't give a damn about a lot of it, since it is all about the "song" and not the musicianship involved. I do find it sad to see them trashed ... and I so want to trash Elvis, for example (I never will!!! for he showed how stupid and bizarre American television had become!!!!!) ... but I'm not sure that some folks give a damn about the history of the music and the folks involved in it ... and then think that the older stuff is crap ... I'm pretty sure that Beethoven, Mozart, Bach and others are turning over in their graves laughing at many of those folks! But the media, and the Internet ... sure do not help things any either, except add to the ball of confusion!
Edited by moshkito - September 14 2024 at 07:45 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Logan
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Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35750 |
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Posted: September 09 2024 at 20:49 |
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And I believe that those people and many others found The Beatles influential. The Beatles being hugely influential is obvious to me and I know it as well as I can know anything with similar anecdotal qualities. It is what might be called a justified true belief. Some people have more well-informed opinions than others, some have misinformed opinions. Some opinions are easier to justify than others. Some are more valid than others. People are going to have well-informed and misinformed opinions whether we like it or not. It's not just of interest to me what one thinks, but how one thinks.
A side-note: But one idea I loathe, and I have seen it here, is that all opinions should be treated with respect. And I have seen people say that all opinions are equal. EDIT: Relating to the "Meh" comment, I recognise that different people have different interests and perspectives, and provided those are not harmful to others (and often themselves) generally, I will respect and appreciate that. Thanks to all for their lively and not so lively comments.  I do appreciate the general positivity and consideration.And another tidbit to edit in (I prefer that to making a new post and therefore double-posting): Not only do many claim that The Beatles was an influence on their music, and I believe them, but I can hear that influence in so much music. It is incredible the impact this group had on people in its relatively short existence operating, and the impact is still happening. It has had an amazing ripple effect. That's why I chose The Beatles for this topic, because of how very influential and recognised it has been. Edited by Logan - September 09 2024 at 23:21 |
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: September 09 2024 at 20:36 |
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^ Meh. All I know is that many of the most progressive performers in the 60s and 70s absolutely admitted the influential nature of The Beatles. A short list of those who have openly avowed their adoration:
Robert Fripp Jimi Hendrix David Bowie Joni Mitchell Roger Waters Brian Wilson Stevie Wonder Black Sabbath (Ozzy and Geezer) Al di Meola Rick Wakeman Peter Gabriel That's a diverse group, yes? But people have their opinions. They are welcome to them. Personally, I know what I know and I couldn't give a f*ck about contrarians.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
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Logan
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Posted: September 09 2024 at 17:26 |
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^ One might say that some threads have more days in their lives than others.
"A Day in the Life" is one of my very favourite songs, and I think of it as a primo progressive song. Nor would I question its influence on Fripp or any others. Credit where credit is due, for me there is no doubt that The Beatles have been hugely influential, have brought innovations into the rock context, and are a hugely significant band, but I have seen many people go too far when it comes to giving credit to The Beatles that does not seem warranted or deserved. I, and others, have pointed out various of those things in this thread, and yet still some will think that The Beatles deserve every ounce of credit they get. By the way, anyone who may take this topic as somehow against the Beatles is not coming from the angle I am. I really like the Beatles and that should not even be at issue, my thing is that people can be bloody ignorant, are prone to exaggeration, and make very dubious claims. A question to me becomes, how common is it to give The Beatles too much credit when it comes to origination and innovation? And how common is "common"? By the way, these days I would have gone into more details in the OP, but I know I wanted to keep it short at the time as I did not want to over-influence others thinking and hear people's own arguments. Adding the word "common" to it wad problematic and I think a mistake. I would phrase it differently now. I had wanted to approach those for myself from certain philosophical angles (epistemology, ontology...), and hopefully leave space for humour to flourish to boot. EDIT (just cause this came to my head while showering): It would not be disrespectful to The Beatles to counter the claim that The Beatles' "Yellow Submarine" influenced Jules Verne to write Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea, and therefore suggest that The Beatles are being given too much credit than they deserve in that case. But someone might say "No one claims that." Well, I have not polled the world. I do know one person who has said (or written) it at least, but I'm confident that he, that is I, does not believe it. Edited by Logan - September 09 2024 at 20:39 |
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: September 09 2024 at 16:52 |
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Damn, this thread is still going?
All I can relate is that Robert Fripp was driving home from college in 1967, and started listening to a song he had never heard on Radio Luxemburg. He immediately pulled the car off to the side of the road and listened to the song in its entirety. He was completely blown away. The song? The newly released "A Day in the Life." He said the song "terrified me." He continued: "This one night. with "A Day in the Life" galvanized me. It was really the turnaround -- that's really when I knew..." Et cetera, et cetera, and out came King Crimson (via Fripp, Fripp & Giles).
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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Logan
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Posted: September 09 2024 at 15:12 |
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^ Are you claiming that The Beatles did not invent blues and jazz?
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Cristi
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Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 43519 |
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Posted: September 09 2024 at 12:31 |
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That is funny. I also think it's wrong, considering The Doors was influenced by blues and even jazz.
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Catcher10
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Posted: September 09 2024 at 12:28 |
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I agree The Doors were a higher art form than the Beatles were, matter of fact to me not even close. Again, not sure what better means, the Beatles sold more records so in that regard they were better, but that's it. Sonically, musically The Doors were better, overall the lyrics were more interesting.
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moshkito
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Posted: September 07 2024 at 19:31 |
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Hi, I think that this is a good point, but sadly, The Doors probably did not get as much positive thoughts as The Doors. In general, I find that The Doors were much more into it, than the Beatles feeling like they had (originally) sugar coat their thoughts and ideas, and then, finally unload on the last couple of albums ... by which time, sadly, they were tired of each other which might have hurt, but the music created was outstanding. I love The Doors dearly, and miss Jim's poetry ... it is exceptional and much more "literary" than The Beatles ever were ... but we have to remember that The Doors were advanced art students in LA ... the Beatles, were, merely, from Liverpool and not as "educated" which was provided by George Martin in his ability to make the arrangements for a lot of their music more interesting and valuable. The Doors, were all "The Doors" by comparison!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Logan
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Posted: September 07 2024 at 16:21 |
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Without The Beatles, The Doors would have sounded like this: ... 
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MortSahlFan
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Posted: September 07 2024 at 15:28 |
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No, but I think The Doors are better
Edited by MortSahlFan - September 07 2024 at 15:28 |
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https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition
https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
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Lewian
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Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14691 |
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Posted: September 07 2024 at 07:10 |
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OK, Greg started this in 2010 and I don't even remember whether I have any posting in here. Anyway the Beatles are great. Arguably still, compared to many other bands, they get even more credit than their greatness should earn them, but if people get crazy about good music that's not a problem for me. I don't really think that noise about the Beatles distracts attention from other good bands. Those that don't listen much to other stuff are probably those that are interested in lyrics, personalities and world peace and not in music in the first place, therefore I have little hope for them anyway. Otherwise the Beatles were a starting point for me and can still be a starting point for some to discover other great 60s/70s music, so all is fine by me.
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TheLionOfPrague
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Posted: September 07 2024 at 03:50 |
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Yeah, they are the best bands of the '60s but there were tons of artists doing things that were very innovative and revolutionary like Mothers of Invention, Bob Dylan, The Kinks, the Stones, The Doors, The Who, Simon & Garfunkel, etc. Some people act as if they invented the wheel.
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I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place
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moshkito
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Posted: September 06 2024 at 17:38 |
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Hi, Agreeing to Disagree is the same thing as stating that it does not matter. It's like it is a stupid discussion in the first place and meaningless in the shaping and continuation of all things. While you have the right to say that, in the end, it defines the artist from the musician ... and the truth behind the work ... or why it is meaningful or not. For those who "made it" this is not a value-less thing ... and you can not deny them their work. But a fan discussion deciding that the artist has no value and that what they said, or sang, was googgaabaloo ... that's another story. I can see how we're all around the SAME TREE, but we see different things, but stating that we can agree to disagree to the same "tree" is insane ... we might as well go try to decipher the bad translations of ancient works ... and give the public a pulp version of it all! The true artist is not there to agree and disagree the merits of their work! Only fans bring that up according to their whims!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Catcher10
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Posted: September 06 2024 at 10:39 |
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It's not about being right or wrong, that really does not exist when discussing the arts.....Rather "agree to disagree", then move on.
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moshkito
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Posted: September 06 2024 at 07:10 |
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Hi, Agreed ... but it adds a touch of ... leave it be ... or shall we say Let It Be ... and the usual appearance that some comments are "real" ... and for me, and my experience, they aren't, just as they were not for many other folks. I'm not in it to stamp out speech, and its many forms, but ... yeah ... there are times when ... you just wanna scream! The Beatles are not an inspiration for me as much as other artistic things at the time in theatre and film, but they certainly are better known than all the others. I still consider Spike Milligan and Chuck Jones my two most valuable "heroes" as they really changed the landscape of their art ... one with sound effects and writing, and the other with cartoons and incredible music invented that almost no one is capable of listening to it ... some of that "cartoon" music, makes a lot of rock music look really bad and poor all around. The Beatles did not exactly change things, but they became the marker and poster boys for most of it real quick.
Edited by moshkito - September 06 2024 at 07:10 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Catcher10 wrote: