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How Spotify silenced rock bands

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moshkito View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 12 2024 at 10:23
Hi,

If you have not read this, check it out.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/news/how-spotify-silenced-rock-bands/ar-AA1oBqPo?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=2324f97dc7a24e359bf10291faed2017&ei=25

I have been, for a long time against many of these "services" as not being helpful to many bands, even though the material is listed ... but those sites do nothing to help many of these artists, other than simply posting it on their websites.

The number mentioned, is scary as heck ... how 30 years ago you had some 140 songs mentioned and listed on the Number 1 lists, and in 2924? Just 3 and they were old stuff.

I have no issue with these being there, but a "new" streaming service needs to be created strictly for new bands, by new bands, with new bands, as a way to promote the music better ... I know that places like PA really help and show so many of these things, but I am not really sure that we're actually listening and buying the stuff ... which kinda suggests that the ability for that new stuff to be seen and appreciated, simply is not there.

PA, and I'm happy for it, has promoted a lot of things by just the mentions, but I kinda wish that there was a better solution for many of these bands to get a leg up ... and show up better, instead of being ignored because they are not mentioned very much, and in this sense Mike has been very good, even though I probably would like a list without numbers for "preference" ... but that's me, not Mike.

Something needs to change, to improve things, but perhaps, it is time that "record companies" take a god-damned jump off the pier into the raving ocean and die ... since the only folks getting any opportunity are the folks that don't need it, and this bothers me ... specially when Roger and Dave try to promote something that is far inferior than a lot of materials out there these days ... but I'm not sure that the listenership wants that much new stuff ... the sad side of "progressive" is how stuck we are in our old favorites ... ohh c'mon, I love Beethoven and Stravinsky, but I don't have to ignore the new music because of it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2024 at 05:46
I never use streaming services. I have plenty music myself to go around, listening to what I like, to pay attention to these streaming services.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2024 at 07:41
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

I never use streaming services. I have plenty music myself to go around, listening to what I like, to pay attention to these streaming services.

Hi,

The article is more about new music and artists, and how they are not getting any help, in favor of the better known artists. 

I'm not sure that the streaming services give a damn, because of their own ownership, which no musician has EVER considered. Why would you use one of these services that is owned by a record company? You really think they are looking for talent? NO> They are making sure that nothing makes it through, so they can continue their 40 year story that the record companies are suffering. They are not suffering ... they waste just as much money as before in different ways ... that we don't consider, and worse ... don't give a damn.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2024 at 08:03
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

The article is more about new music and artists, and how they are not getting any help, in favor of the better known artists.
Isn't this how the music industry has always been? Rush and Zappa got little to no airplay and had to build their fans by hard work and constant touring. Even in the 70s, most radio stations would play new artists music only if you paid them. It's always been a popularity contest and has nothing to do with talent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2024 at 09:59
It's a bit like Banks only wanting to lend money to people who don't need it.

Basically it's about taking a risk in a world where 'risk management' is all the rage. Record compabies want the same thing that sold yesterday and have little interest in innovation. It's not that new a phenomena though. Most prog artists don't make a living out of it unless they are seemingly very bloody minded and carry on with a dream that one day it will happen. Gregory Spawton (Big Big Train) had to wait over 20 years before he could give up his day job (BBT finally entered the UK album charts proper in 2019 for the first time). The IQ boys mostly have other jobs with Martin Orford being a music lecturer. The now almost famous Andy Edwards was the drummer in same band but now earns a living with his youtube channel. This is a guy that played in Robert Plant's band (no not that one!) but again has mainly made a living from being a music lecturer up to recently. Music just doesn't pay well and hasn't for a long time even before streaming came along.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2024 at 10:13
I piggyback off my mother's spotify account but I don't use it much. I'd rather listen to Sirius XM (satellite radio) online or youtube (which I don't feel is really much inferior ass far as sound goes). Also, you don't own the music on spotify so if it were to go out of business for some reason all your music on there would go poof. I'm a big cd guy so for my serious listening I put on a cd in my compact cd stereo system. I suppose what bothers me the most though is that so many people use this as their main source of listening to music (even prog fans although I suspect that most of them are younger).

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - August 13 2024 at 10:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2024 at 10:34
I can't afford CD's anymore or at least I don't believe they are worth it. Funny thing is that if I upload a CD into my Apple music it sounds better than playing the CD on my CD player. I'm admittedly a bit clueless about Hi-Fi systems though and don't even have a 'pre-amp'. Streaming suits me fine. I play the King Gizzard album at home and can then seamlessly stream it in the car through my phone using 'Android Mobile'.  I can also look at the amazing artwork on my big screen TV while playing it on Apple TV at home. This alone kills the idea of CD's for me. I do buy vinyl though and that is the way I support my favourite artists.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2024 at 12:40
Here's a clickable link to the original site with the article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/news/bands-music-oasis-blur-spotify-algorithm-wet-leg/

Not surprising that it is easier for an artist to make it commonly than a band due to splitting revenue. And doing it on your own is more convenient (a lot then need musicians to assist for gigs and recording). Pop and rock and Indie overlap -- can't say what might not have been considered that could be applicable.  My interests tend to do well in the charts anyway.  There have been bands basically forced to do covers to make some money at music.  Of course it is common for musicians to have day jobs not related to music and then do small gigs.

I don't know how much Spotify, and its algorithms, has affected music.  I do stream music a lot, but I use youtube and bandcamp the most.  Other than vinyl and some other merch, I don't really care about physical product.

One thing we could do do is to organise music festivals/ events (I'd start with local acts if one can).  I wanted to start a website that would aid this, put musicians in touch with each other and other things.  And also just getting the word out about bands (and artists) here or elsewhere, liking their videos and leaving comments can be encouraging for them and turn some others onto the music. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2024 at 12:41
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

...
 Rush and Zappa got little to no airplay and had to build their fans by hard work and constant touring. Even in the 70s, most radio stations would play new artists music only if you paid them. 
...

Hi,

I think it depends on the area in the USA. In California, for sure, FZ and Rush were the darlings of most FM radio stations, and FZ mostly because of his bootlegs, that showed how incredibly good his concerts were. And the LA Free Press made sure everyone knew where Frank was! But the big "know" was ... that his groups were magnificent in concert and blew many folks away with it. Besides being funny/weird/andallthat, it was (probably) by far some of the best composed and performed music in all rock at the time. Just seeing the insanity play out was something that you hope to see once in your life!

It was rather neat, for me, watching the Daily Doug and state that FZ's band was incredible and that it was probably that everything was "scored" and "rehearsed". Rush was never one of my favorites but many of my friends at the time had a lot of their albums.

The payola side of things kinda got worse when the Rape of the FM Radio stations at the end of the 70's and all the new/progressive music that had been played was taken off the air. That's when some folks think that progressive "died", but many of those bands were already established and they managed to make it, but the top 5 situation was not nice ... those bands, kinda abused the privilege and I kinda think they took too much money out of any new bands. The fake news that the record companies used some of the money made from huge acts to help new acts in their stable was a joke. We had friends on Columbia that had a great history of sales, and they were one of the groups that were dumped ... they managed to survive and they are well remembered today (no at PA!!!! Nobody has handed me the plyers .... ) ... but I didn't get a chance to ask David Ossman when he was here in Portland about it ... it seemed like dead fish school!



Edited by moshkito - August 13 2024 at 12:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2024 at 12:43
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

...
One thing we could do do is to organise music festivals/ events (I'd start with local acts if one can).  I wanted to start a website that would aid this, put musicians in touch with each other and other things.  And also just getting the word out about bands (and artists) here or elsewhere, liking their videos and leaving comments can be encouraging for them and turn some others onto the music. 

Hi,

Now we talking ... count me in!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2024 at 13:03
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
I'm admittedly a bit clueless about Hi-Fi systems though and don't even have a 'pre-amp'.
...

Hi,

There is a side to it, that is really important and it helps interpret the "art rock" of the late 60's and early 70's that became known as "progressive".

It's like telling folks to go see 2001 on a huge screen with the big sound like the old days at the Cinerama Dome .... fast forward a few years, and you find Coppola trying out the same thing with visuals that were not science fiction or make believe. A year later Star Wars started with 500 speakers all over the theater, and your butt felt all of it! Nobody today has ever seen, felt, or has much of an idea about that experience, which explains why so much stuff is not that great! It's presentation is cheap, poor and probably none of it, and all folks look for is another screaming guitar ... so to speak!

The idea was to shock your senses some ... into seeing something unreal and far out ... today, the only thing you can assimilate to this is the very loud concerts that some bands put on ... but their music does not have the effect that the films did, for example.

The Hi-Fi system, was valuable and important in the late 60's and early 70's ... it was the only way to hear the music, and the better the system, the better the music sounded. If you had stopped at a sound store and checked it out, you would be amazed ... bring your favorite LP (at the time) ... I did ... Phaedra ... and that's when I selected the ESS Heil AMT1 for speakers that cost me in 1975 about $550 for both speakers, and it required a strong receiver, and I got later a 500W Receiver to pump those speakers. Right after that you need a turntable and cartridge, because the quality of the needle in the cartridge makes a massive ... make that MASSIVE ... difference in the quality of the sound.

What folks hear today, would be equivalent to the FM radio signals these days ... which is as good as you can hear music unless you venture into a sound store. The mp3/flac (high end mp3, not the low like end Apple uses!) thing is not the endall/beall that it is made out to be ... in fact, I find it a real big rip off. A really good stereo system makes those things sound stupid and cheap. 

The only sad thing about most streaming stuff, is that the liveliness of the music itself is not present in most cases, and thus, your knowledge, or anyone else's about how good the stuff can be, is gone.

I do not think that the streaming ability will help the music for at least another 50 years ... the majority of all services are going to milk it as cheaply as possible, for as long as they can! 

I have not asked much, but I think only a handful of folks on PA are really aware of what a good/great Hi-Fi system can do for any music ... and let me tell you that Renata Tebaldi and Birgit Nilsson really make those speakers fly and then some ... you can't get that on your earphones, even with a set worth $500 dollars (because the source does not match or have it as good, see?), like most folks think these days!


Edited by moshkito - August 13 2024 at 13:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2024 at 13:08
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I can't afford CD's anymore or at least I don't believe they are worth it. Funny thing is that if I upload a CD into my Apple music it sounds better than playing the CD on my CD player. I'm admittedly a bit clueless about Hi-Fi systems though and don't even have a 'pre-amp'. Streaming suits me fine. I play the King Gizzard album at home and can then seamlessly stream it in the car through my phone using 'Android Mobile'.  I can also look at the amazing artwork on my big screen TV while playing it on Apple TV at home. This alone kills the idea of CD's for me. I do buy vinyl though and that is the way I support my favourite artists.

But isn't vinyl 3 or 4 times the price of a CD?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mellotronwave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2024 at 13:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2024 at 00:22
I don't think we can blame this on services like Spotify. Sure, they are influential to some extent, but the problem is IMHO in the new generation of listeners. Used to watching short clips on YouTube and TikTok, they just do not listen to music like we did back in the 90s (or earlier).

I use Spotify a lot, but I also hate the way the UI is set up. It's really difficult for someone like me, who focuses on releases, to keep track of new music and what I've already listened to. 95% of all interesting new music from the Rock/Prog/Metal/Jazz domain is there, that's not the problem. It's sifting through all the stuff that I'm not interested in. And if I, with 40+ years of listening experience, have a hard time navigating it, I can only begin to imagine how hard it must be for a now 20 years old listener. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2024 at 05:48
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I don't think we can blame this on services like Spotify. Sure, they are influential to some extent, but the problem is IMHO in the new generation of listeners. Used to watching short clips on YouTube and TikTok, they just do not listen to music like we did back in the 90s (or earlier).
...

Hi,

I was going to add that Spotify is not the only one, but you covered without having to name any of them. 

And some of the "suggestions" are ridiculous, and obviously were not heard, and made simply for the use of a word or two in its blurb on the service. And the hard part, as Mike suggests, many folks just gobble it up ... and sometimes even ignore PA or AwesomeProg or other sites and how some folks can actually describe/review the music.

I'm hoping that PA can create a more detailed area for newer bands ... so the ideas and discussions are not in the middle of the pond and no one (just about) reads it anyway. In a special area, it would become rather obvious very quickly who is helping these bands better. I tend to review the materials but won't review something I do not exactly see well, or understand. 

My main concern is that many of these "streaming services" are owned and operated by the same companies that have hurt progressive music the most ... and I am not exactly convinced that we care enough to do something about it, which is one of the reasons for asking for a special area, not just another thread on the board!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2024 at 07:51
^ Spotify is almost useless when it comes to discovering new music. I use it a lot, and the recommendations I get are ridiculous. It works best when you just use it as a tool to sample music before you actually buy it. Use some other website - this one, AP, RYM etc. - to find the music. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2024 at 09:17
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I can't afford CD's anymore or at least I don't believe they are worth it. Funny thing is that if I upload a CD into my Apple music it sounds better than playing the CD on my CD player. I'm admittedly a bit clueless about Hi-Fi systems though and don't even have a 'pre-amp'. Streaming suits me fine. I play the King Gizzard album at home and can then seamlessly stream it in the car through my phone using 'Android Mobile'.  I can also look at the amazing artwork on my big screen TV while playing it on Apple TV at home. This alone kills the idea of CD's for me. I do buy vinyl though and that is the way I support my favourite artists.

But isn't vinyl 3 or 4 times the price of a CD?

I don't think that is the case anymore. CD's are quite regularly priced around the £12-£15 mark with vinyl anything between £20-£30 for single vinyl. It varies a lot. I would say it's 2 times on average. I would rather have 1 vinyl record than 2 CD's when I am able to stream the other for a reasonable monthly subscription.


Edited by richardh - August 14 2024 at 09:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Floydoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2024 at 09:26
I have never used any music streaming service. Like many others here I grew up listening to music by the album's worth, rather than individual songs. And as for any service giving recommendations (in my book that's attempting to think for you) that would just irritate me. I like to discover new stuff by conversing with like minded friends or on online forums such as this one, or by just reading music blogs or magazine style sites.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2024 at 09:32
Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

I have never used any music streaming service. Like many others here I grew up listening to music by the album's worth, rather than individual songs. 
...

Hi,

It's a matter of time, and ALL music will only be available by streaming, or purchasing directly via the artist. The costs involved in a CD/DVD and a LP, are not going to get easier, and that will help new folks ... stream it directly, hopefully not by a site that is owned by the same people that have ripped us all for 60 years!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Floydoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2024 at 09:38
Yeah I hear you - I do despair at thee way things are going. The bulk of my collection is on CD, and everything is ripped to .FLAC format for listening to on the PC which has a very good Soundblaster and some top notch speakers... giving a better overall listening experience than my ageing hi-fi system.
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