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Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
Posted: July 20 2024 at 05:43
Though I haven't been active on the forums for a while, I visit it every day, and occasionally log in to see if there is something going on in the Collab section. As I have said on many occasions, I will always have a special place for ProgArchives in my heart, and am looking forward to celebrating 20 years as a member of the site in 2025.
The reason why I don't post any longer has nothing to do with politics, but rather with loss of interest in discussing music. However, in the past few years I have noticed that the general atmosphere has become less and less inviting. The word that comes to my mind when I think of what PA looks like now is "dour". This is quite evident in the music threads, but gets even worse if politics comes into the mix.
Let me be quite frank now. Politics has become poison, and allowing discussion of political issues is destructive for any forum that does not have a purely political focus. We can prattle every minute of the day about how important it is to confront different ideas and be constructive about it, but I'm afraid the horse has bolted now, and no locking of the stable doors after the fact will help. Those who would like to see an open and respectful exchange of views, or such wishful thinking as self-moderation, are deluding themselves. News sites have been forced to close the comments section (unless, like the New York Times, they can employ a team of moderators to do the job) to stop people from spewing venom or posting conspiracy theories.
PA now has two mods, neither of whom is paid for their job. Please stop asking them to do more than they already do. If you want to discuss politics, religion, porn or whatever else, there's plenty of outlets on the Internet that will allow you to do that. ProgressiveEars banned politics and religion years ago, and the forum is not doing worse than PA is. It is not by turning PA into a bad imitation of social media that you will revive it.
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
Posted: July 20 2024 at 06:02
I like this site because of its musical content. If someone really thinks the world wants to hear their political opinion, there are plenty of sites out there for that purpose.
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17487
Posted: July 20 2024 at 07:10
Raff wrote:
...
The reason why I don't post any longer has nothing to do with politics, but rather with loss of interest in discussing music. However, in the past few years I have noticed that the general atmosphere has become less and less inviting. The word that comes to my mind when I think of what PA looks like now is "dour". This is quite evident in the music threads, but gets even worse if politics comes into the mix.
...
Hi,
I think the issue here would be something that the Admins are, possibly, not doing ... and the part that makes things "dour" for me, is seeing many Admins actually participate in many of those discussions, instead of immediately locking them out, or, at the very least, put on a very large warning to the folks that are taking advantage of the situation, and ignoring the music altogether.
It could have a negative component to it, but, sometimes a few drastic measures are required.
But this is a very DIFFICULT thing to process. All of the top albums in the "Progressive" history have some form of politics in it, even if some of it is cleaned out a bit ... how can we just think of Epitaph as some song, when we know that folks were getting blown up by that other faction, and the VietNam war was still in its heyday of bombs and total destruction, and then a song about megalomaniacs, and then a song about you and I don't listen anyway ... it just keeps going. Tarkus is also about conflict.
And a lot of bands were up front of this, and the sad thing, is when Jon Anderson had the thought that what we needed was some more internal beauty ... and one of the players called it some sour, badly cooked stuff, and his playing was his best ever, when compared to some other stuff he went on to do.
This kind of attitude, by a player hurts ... and his having no class to appreciate it as a total composition, for me, just shows his appreciation for music ... limited to what he knows and he doesn't like the rest and we think he is great because of the cheap capes in color.
Raff wrote:
...
Let me be quite frank now. Politics has become poison, and allowing discussion of political issues is destructive for any forum that does not have a purely political focus.
...
I disagree. Politics is not different than discussing your next curry or time in the loo! But the point is that some folks believe their God is greater than the Universes and the Earth itself ... and for this they fight an imaginary battle which they "can not lose".
I'll tell you what is sick ... that after thousands of years, the same places on this earth are still fighting ... and no one has any interest whatsoever to bring a flower and some love to that place until someone gets exterminated! AND, we end up taking it out on the lesser ones, who are but pawns in a much bigger game with squares on it!
And this is the part that could be improved, but the Admins would have to be aware of someone's obvious intent ... to flame the steak to a burnt crisp and then call it revenge! That specific person should not be welcome here!
Raff wrote:
...
PA now has two mods, neither of whom is paid for their job. Please stop asking them to do more than they already do. If you want to discuss politics, religion, porn or whatever else, there's plenty of outlets on the Internet that will allow you to do that. ProgressiveEars banned politics and religion years ago, and the forum is not doing worse than PA is. It is not by turning PA into a bad imitation of social media that you will revive it.
---
With one issue in terms of what I see ... all of this ... simply shows the "top" ... PA admins are representing an ideal ... and I'm not sure this is as well defined as it needs to be. Again, politics is not the issue ... the civility with which it is done is the issue, and that one is the part that needs some solid resolves ... but I am not sure that the Admins see it that way ... or perhaps PA needs a new/other Admin ... again, I have no answers. Just some thoughts.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8614
Posted: July 20 2024 at 07:29
presdoug wrote:
I hate Bruce Springsteen's music.
Now, to properly address the purpose of this thread.
jamesbaldwin, I agree with your perspectives on this matter. These are precarious times we live in, and communicating with each other is so important, and vital, especially in politics...
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13049
Posted: July 20 2024 at 08:25
Raff wrote:
Though I haven't been active on the forums for a while, I visit it every day, and occasionally log in to see if there is something going on in the Collab section. As I have said on many occasions, I will always have a special place for ProgArchives in my heart, and am looking forward to celebrating 20 years as a member of the site in 2025.
Bentornata nella nostra famiglia, sorella Raff. Mi manchi.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 5983
Posted: July 20 2024 at 18:01
presdoug wrote:
presdoug wrote:
I hate Bruce Springsteen's music.
Now, to properly address the purpose of this thread.
jamesbaldwin, I agree with your perspectives on this matter. These are precarious times we live in, and communicating with each other is so important, and vital, especially in politics...
Thanks for your opinion.
(Springsteen for me is like the first love, you never forget it --- however on this site I post only his particular songs, different from his typical style, such as precisely The Big Muddy, which for me can be appreciated even by those who do not like his rock)
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 5983
Posted: July 20 2024 at 18:16
Atavachron wrote:
Something that should be pointed out is that politics in the U.S. and the world has changed. The election of Donald Trump was a catalyst for intense feelings, and those feelings will impact discussions here. But it is no one's fault ~ other than those who support him ~ that a madman came to power, and that his election most certainly caused intense reactions and will affect how people talk to each other and how they're willing to express themselves. It was inevitable that such an event would create much controversy and perceptions that must be dealt with. When I joined this forum George Bush Jr. was president. I never thought I'd miss the Bush's but in retrospect, Bush Jr. seems like Mr. Rogers compared to Trump, and had Hillary become President the atmosphere would be quite different.
One other factor is personal change which is separate from political upheaval. Individuals experience growth, trauma, loss, grief, revelations, and these things will impact how they express themselves and what they're willing to say, indeed what they must say.
Both of these factors are on display here and it should be no surprise they are fundamental to how members talk to each other.
Thanks for this message. I agree with you.
And I add:
Instead, in Europe, war came for the first time with the invasion of Ukraine, and then every debate became a referendum for or against Putin, you can no longer discuss politics, make analysis, if you are not in favour of sending arms to Ukraine, you are a Putin supporter. Then came the propaganda, the censorship, the journalists became aggressive, the news increasingly biased. Then came 7 October and the genocide in Gaza, to which the West is no stranger: the US, Germany and Italy are the first three nations in the world to send arms to Israel. And on this fact, too, comes the propaganda, the censorship... the students occupying the universities and calling for a halt to military agreements with Israel.
there is a growing discrepancy between the citizens and the parties: for example, in Italy the majority of the population is clearly against sending arms to Ukraine, but almost all the parties are in favour. I make no judgements here (I am against sending arms), both positions are legitimate, I just say that the majority position among the people has almost no political representation.
EU in my opinion, is losing any semblance of autonomy from the US and Israel every day.
We are really in a new situation, a new world.
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65244
Posted: July 20 2024 at 20:46
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Should PA have political discussions? It's up to the mods.
That said, if you don't want to discuss or read political discussions... don't respond or read the political thread. Just ignore it. It's that simple.[IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink[/IMG[/DIV
It's not if you don't want to discuss or read political discussions, it's if you do.
Personally I can't stand politics, on the other hand it's an important matter in these troubled times and I'm not gonna ignore some misled authoritarian crap if it should be addressed and pushed up against most firmly.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
Posted: July 21 2024 at 05:27
Atavachron wrote:
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Should PA have political discussions? It's up to the mods.
That said, if you don't want to discuss or read political discussions... don't respond or read the political thread. Just ignore it. It's that simple.[IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink[/IMG[/DIV
It's not if you don't want to discuss or read political discussions, it's if you do.
Personally I can't stand politics, on the other hand it's an important matter in these troubled times and I'm not gonna ignore some misled authoritarian crap if it should be addressed and pushed up against most firmly.
The bigger problem is that those of us who have worked hard to build up the site, (hundreds of reviews, plus album and band additions, and genre definitions) don't want people using the platform we have built for pushing their propaganda. Often times, those on here pushing propaganda the most are people who have never contributed to the site. In a recent 'political discussion' one of our better known free-loaders accused Mirakaze of being "bathroom phobic". Mirakaze is one of the best and most productive members on this site. Its unfortunate that someone who does not contribute is being given a platform to insult those that do contribute.
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14691
Posted: July 21 2024 at 07:14
moshkito wrote:
I think the issue here would be something that the Admins are, possibly, not doing ... and the part that makes things "dour" for me, is seeing many Admins actually participate in many of those discussions, (...)
This looks as if you don't know who is admin and who isn't.
Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Offline
Points: 5348
Posted: July 21 2024 at 08:11
All of the top albums in the "Progressive" history have some form of politics in it
Except for: Close to the Edge, Fragile, The Yes Album, The Snow Goose, Ommadawn, Romantic Warrior, Häxan, Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh, Rock Bottom, In A Silent Way, A Drop of Light, Viljans Öga, Voyage of the Acolyte, Hamburger Concerto, Of Queues and Cures, K.A (Köhntarkösz Anteria)
And that's just the PA top 100. ;)
“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
Special Collaborator
Eclectic, JRF/Canterbury, Avant/Zeuhl
Joined: December 17 2019
Location: (redacted)
Status: Offline
Points: 4058
Posted: July 21 2024 at 09:02
Hrychu wrote:
All of the top albums in the "Progressive" history have some form of politics in it
Except for: (...) The Yes Album (...)
I don't know about the other ones but this definitely isn't true; "Yours Is No Disgrace" is a protest song against the Vietnam War and contains one of Jon Anderson's least opaque set of lyrics from that period of the band.
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65244
Posted: July 21 2024 at 14:13
Biden has issued a statement that he will step down at the end of this term. The question now is who will replace his candidacy. Kamala probably best but Gretchen Whitmer would also be good, Newsom not so much IMO.
Biden is great patriot and unafraid to do the right thing. Though sad, it will add much needed enthusiasm and dynamic to the Democrats.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65244
Posted: July 21 2024 at 14:31
Easy Money wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Should PA have political discussions? It's up to the mods.
That said, if you don't want to discuss or read political discussions... don't respond or read the political thread. Just ignore it. It's that simple[IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink[/IMG[/DIV
It's not if you don't want to discuss or read political discussions, it's if you do.Personally I can't stand politics, on the other hand it's an important matter in these troubled times and I'm not gonna ignore some misled authoritarian crap if it should be addressed and pushed up against most firmly.
The bigger problem is that those of us who have worked hard to build up the site, (hundreds of reviews, plus album and band additions, and genre definitions) don't want people using the platform we have built for pushing their propaganda. Often times, those on here pushing propaganda the most are people who have never contributed to the site. In a recent 'political discussion' one of our better known free-loaders accused Mirakaze of being "bathroom phobic". Mirakaze is one of the best and most productive members on this site. Its unfortunate that someone who does not contribute is being given a platform to insult those that do contribute.
That is problematic, and unfortunate.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20239
Posted: July 21 2024 at 15:30
King of Loss wrote:
I remember when this place was chaos and it was fun. No trolling though but at times it got pretty heated.
It's up to the admins ultimately what they should and should not allow.
yesss, the first few years were a wild free-for-all and it was immensely fun.
Maani (a priest at that) was the only active admin and he had a total laissez-faire attitude
But there was plenty of trolling, but generally, it was expressed in the Mariah Carey and the successive Velvet Rooms threads - I'm sure the site woud gain some loading page rapidity if we (M@X) were to delete these threads.
Unfortunately the planet has changed since and taken a wrong turn.
I hate the fact that we can't discuss anything anymore in here without WW3 ignition countdown starting, but sadly I went along with the political topic ban.
I would like to thank PP for obeying the ultimatum given of staying away from these topics, because we gained a few years of freedom. i wish others would've kept their promise upon their return from ban.
.
let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Raff wrote:
