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Topic ClosedShould Sun Ra be included in Progarchives?

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Moyan View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Should Sun Ra be included in Progarchives?
    Posted: May 15 2024 at 18:58



Sun Ra's career spanned over six decades, during which he explored various musical genres and styles, including free jazz, avant-garde music, and electronic music. If progressive music is defined more broadly as music that pushes boundaries and explores new sonic territories, then Sun Ra’s inclusion becomes more compelling. Sun Ra's influence on artists such as King Crimson and Pink Floyd is well documented. Not to mention his influence on German Krautrock artists, which is quite obvious. His use of electronic sounds and unconventional instrumentation anticipated trends in progressive rock. Furthermore, his exploratory approach to music and his refusal to be pigeonholed into any one genre make him a fitting addition to a genre that values innovation and experimentation. Inspired by spacey themes, many of his compositions featured intricate arrangements and complex structures. There are arguments to be made for Sun Ra’s inclusion in the progressive music canon.

Post your opinions and discuss.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2024 at 19:35
I'm a huge Sun Ra fan and own almost every studio album that has emerged being called as such
Therefore i'm an expert on his his vast discography starting with his 1957 debut to early 80s stuff like Strange Celestial Road. Not so much into what came after.

While there are a few releases that could technically be considered jazz-fusion, keep in mind that the category was never designed to be an all-encompassing one and only represents the biggest names that delivered well known jazz-fusion classics or delved more on the rock side of the equation.

Sun Ra's work never really fits what i would deem him eligible for inclusion because he never really delved into the rock paradgim but rather used African music as his primary methodology of fusion with the occasional moments of funk.

One of my favorite artists of all time and i have even pondered the fact if he should be here myself but as i've revisited his output repeatedly over the years i've deemed him not quite what this site is looking for.

Almost EVERY jazz artist released a fusion or album or two in their career so i would say no.

He was very much an underground sensation that influenced prog artists for sure but that's not good enough to warrant inclusion. That's just my take and since i'm on the JF team i'd likely vote no.

Thanks for suggesting though. He definitely needs more exposure to prog lovers!




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2024 at 23:04
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

While there are a few releases that could technically be considered jazz-fusion, keep in mind that the category was never designed to be an all-encompassing one and only represents the biggest names that delivered well known jazz-fusion classics or delved more on the rock side of the equation.
Whether or not you consider Sun Ra to be progressive, you have to acknowledge that he is a subgenre unto himself. To be honest, I never thought of Sun Ra as a firm fit in the Jazz Rock/Fusion category on Progarchives. If we leave aside the Prog-Related and Proto-Prog sections, in which there is a wide range of quite different "related" artists, Sun Ra, in my humble opinion, would primarily fit into the PA's Avant-Prog section.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2024 at 02:34
Although fairly familiar of is general oeuvre, I only have heard part of his very extensive and complicated discography. While I do agree that most everyone interested in prog and JR/F should at least investigate a few of SR's albums (I think of Lanquidity as one of the first), but really think he is outside the frame or context of ProgArchives.

Drawing the  PA borderlines when it comes to jazz (and folk) musics is not always easy, and we should rely on common sense. As much as I love John and Alice Coltrane (that's the "Trane" in my username) and their respective oeuvres, common sense tells us that neither (and that would include Pharoah Sanders as well) fit the scope of the site. 

Should our members or visitors want to check out their works, they can go to our sister site Jazz Music Archives (who is in dire need of forum activity), or discussing it in our general music discussions forum.









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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2024 at 03:42
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

As much as I love John and Alice Coltrane (that's the "Trane" in my username) and their respective oeuvres, common sense tells us that neither (and that would include Pharoah Sanders as well) fit the scope of the site.
I'm afraid that in this particular thread, Coltrane cannot be compared to Sun Ra, despite the fact that Coltrane was a major player in the creation of free jazz and modal jazz and that his music explored spiritual themes. Sun Ra was a highly experimental artist who blended electronic music and avant-garde jazz and incorporated elements of afrofuturism into that mix, creating a unique blend of cosmic sounds and philosophical concepts that are, unlike Coltrane, close to the idiom of the more experimental side of progressive music. German Krautrock comes to mind. I mean, I posted above the "Atlantis" album from 1969. There is a title track that is truly groundbreaking in the progressive music sense because it showcases Sun Ra's innovative approach to experimental jazz, blending elements of space sounds, early electronic, and psychedelic music. The track features a fusion of jazz, trippy grooves, and spacey sounds, creating a unique and otherworldly listening experience. Sun Ra's use of the clavinet, a new solar sound instrument at the time, adds a futuristic and cosmic dimension to the music. The musicianship on "Atlantis" is exceptional and progressive in the style of Krautrock, which is yet to come. While listening to the 21-minute "Atlantis" track, you get the impression that something creepy is coming from the depths of the Atlantic Ocean to the surface.



Or, for instance, Sun Ra's song "Astro Black," which showcases Sun Ra's experimental approach to music, features spacey synthesisers, repetitive motifs, free-form improvisation, and a cosmic atmosphere reminiscent of Krautrock bands like Can, Faust, or Neu!. This track blends avant-jazz and jazz-fusion sensibilities with electronic elements, creating a hypnotic and otherworldly sonic experience that mirrors the spirit of Krautrock music.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2024 at 04:52
I know that these days it's very hard to get anything into Prog Related and people are reluctant to do that, but I'd say "Prog Related" is a descriptor that'd fit Sun Ra very well.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2024 at 17:45
Hi,

I have no idea if he should or should not be added. However, when we look at WHEN he played and what he did with his band ... I would say that it deserves to be added to a "progressive" listing ... 

However, with the ideas and thoughts that we have TODAY in regards to many of the groups/bands from many years ago, in some ways, we have passed them by ... it's like we really did not, or do not, wish to deal with that thought, because it will stretch things even further out and ... probably end up making the particular designation a bit on the ridiculous side ... when someone lists A, B, C and then D ... altogether and they are quite different and apart from each other.

I don't know how we can give the TIME and PLACE a chance in these designations ... things are way too scattered already as it is ... by bands that probably do not deserve to be listed in that area (specially if it is only one album!!!) ...

I really would not know what to say, or suggest ... with one exception ... unlike many bands already listed, Sun Ra was a real band and had quite a few albums, and that is a lot more work that many of the bands listed in the particular area folks are thinking of. Somehow, I think that bands that really did, and have the work to show for it, really deserve a better fate than ignored.


Edited by moshkito - May 16 2024 at 17:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2024 at 03:09
Originally posted by Moyan Moyan wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

As much as I love John and Alice Coltrane (that's the "Trane" in my username) and their respective oeuvres, common sense tells us that neither (and that would include Pharoah Sanders as well) fit the scope of the site.
I'm afraid that in this particular thread, Coltrane cannot be compared to Sun Ra, despite the fact that Coltrane was a major player in the creation of free jazz and modal jazz and that his music explored spiritual themes. Sun Ra was a highly experimental artist who blended electronic music and avant-garde jazz and incorporated elements of afrofuturism into that mix, creating a unique blend of cosmic sounds and philosophical concepts that are, unlike Coltrane, close to the idiom of the more experimental side of progressive music. German Krautrock comes to mind. I mean, I posted above the "Atlantis" album from 1969. There is a title track that is truly groundbreaking in the progressive music sense because it showcases Sun Ra's innovative approach to experimental jazz, blending elements of space sounds, early electronic, and psychedelic music. The track features a fusion of jazz, trippy grooves, and spacey sounds, creating a unique and otherworldly listening experience. Sun Ra's use of the clavinet, a new solar sound instrument at the time, adds a futuristic and cosmic dimension to the music. The musicianship on "Atlantis" is exceptional and progressive in the style of Krautrock, which is yet to come. While listening to the 21-minute "Atlantis" track, you get the impression that something creepy is coming from the depths of the Atlantic Ocean to the surface.

Svettie,

Your arguments are duly noted and you get a half-point.

That's the one thing I've appreciated from you over the years, it is your eclectic forays and suggestions (not always on-the-dot, though) 

But if we have to include avant-garde composers and electronic pioneers, we'd have to include Edgar Varese, Pierre Boulez, John Cage, Terry Riley (oops he's inWink), Moondog, Wendy Carlos, Isao Tomita, Philipp Glass,  LaMonte Young, Pierre Henry, etc... 

.... and even Fela Kuti

I mean, Igor Stravinsky was progressive, back in his days (a couple of steps ahead of everyone), but he's out of focus. 


in other words (and IMHO), it's a can of worm best not opened.




Edited by Sean Trane - May 17 2024 at 03:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2024 at 06:34
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

...
But if we have to include avant-garde composers and electronic pioneers, we'd have to include Edgar Varese, Pierre Boulez, John Cage, Terry Riley (oops he's inWink), Moondog, Wendy Carlos, Isao Tomita, Philipp Glass,  LaMonte Young, Pierre Henry, etc... 

.... and even Fela Kuti

I mean, Igor Stravinsky was progressive, back in his days (a couple of steps ahead of everyone), but he's out of focus. 

in other words (and IMHO), it's a can of worm best not opened.

Hi,

I think I disagree on that thought. My take is that a lot of folks that are making these decisions, are not exactly fans of classical music in many of its interpretations and styles, and they might dislike when someone (mostly me?) makes some comparisons to classical music.

The fact of the matter is, that music, like just about all arts, has been progressive for hundreds of years, thus our selective ideas are basically out of touch with the history of the music ... and easy to see when we add a band with one album and ignore Sun Ra with many albums, which is really sad ... the majority of the bands listed in many particular areas, can not even stand up to the work that Sun Ra created ... but we know it all, and we decide that Sun Ra is a freak that doesn't belong in PA or in its areas of progressive music.

This would mean that a lot of the "definition" of progressive music, would have to be cleaned up, at which point it will be easier (hopefully better) to be able to find places for many bands ... although I'm still against a band that only has one album to be added ... we should look for the works that have more to their name, other than just one album. It might mean one or two things get left behind, but a small section, sort of an "almost there" section could easily be created for them. Main listing and secondary listing kind of thing.

This brings up another tough issue ... an album/band "that sounds like" ... is added ... but one that has done it for many years and albums, although some of them really different and definitely experimental and progressive, gets left behind ... it's like do we really know what this whole thing is about?

Unplug the darn thing and play it ... guess what ... there is nothing in it that makes it great. Reminds me of Keith and Tarkus ... take the electronics out and you got a massive piano concert ... and we really hate that thought because it isn't into the idea of "progressive, and it shouldn't! No meaningless guitar solo ... so to speak ... the kind of detail that needs to be removed from the definition since solos have been there for at least 500 years and almost all music has it! I guess we don't like listening to Mozart and his endless solos!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2024 at 07:17
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

...
But if we have to include avant-garde composers and electronic pioneers, we'd have to include Edgar Varese, Pierre Boulez, John Cage, Terry Riley (oops he's inWink), Moondog, Wendy Carlos, Isao Tomita, Philipp Glass,  LaMonte Young, Pierre Henry, etc... 

.... and even Fela Kuti

I mean, Igor Stravinsky was progressive, back in his days (a couple of steps ahead of everyone), but he's out of focus. 

in other words (and IMHO), it's a can of worm best not opened.

but we know it all, and we decide that Sun Ra is a freak that doesn't belong in PA or in its areas of progressive music.

This would mean that a lot of the "definition" of progressive music, would have to be cleaned up, at which point it will be easier (hopefully better) to be able to find places for many bands ...
AFAIK, this site is still called the encyclopedia of progressive rock, not progressive musics 

We've already overstepped the "boundaries" (define that WackoWink) a few times


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2024 at 20:00
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

...
But if we have to include avant-garde composers and electronic pioneers, we'd have to include Edgar Varese, Pierre Boulez, John Cage, Terry Riley (oops he's inWink), Moondog, Wendy Carlos, Isao Tomita, Philipp Glass,  LaMonte Young, Pierre Henry, etc... 

.... and even Fela Kuti

I mean, Igor Stravinsky was progressive, back in his days (a couple of steps ahead of everyone), but he's out of focus. 

in other words (and IMHO), it's a can of worm best not opened.

You just listed a boatload of artists I have in my massive ProgFusion playlist. I’d love to see them all here, including Sun Ra.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2024 at 06:44
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

...
But if we have to include avant-garde composers and electronic pioneers, we'd have to include Edgar Varese, Pierre Boulez, John Cage, Terry Riley (oops he's inWink), Moondog, Wendy Carlos, Isao Tomita, Philipp Glass,  LaMonte Young, Pierre Henry, etc... 

.... and even Fela Kuti

I mean, Igor Stravinsky was progressive, back in his days (a couple of steps ahead of everyone), but he's out of focus. 

in other words (and IMHO), it's a can of worm best not opened.

but we know it all, and we decide that Sun Ra is a freak that doesn't belong in PA or in its areas of progressive music.

This would mean that a lot of the "definition" of progressive music, would have to be cleaned up, at which point it will be easier (hopefully better) to be able to find places for many bands ...
AFAIK, this site is still called the encyclopedia of progressive rock, not progressive musics 

We've already overstepped the "boundaries" (define that WackoWink) a few times
.

Hi,

The sad reality is that the site has a lot of folks that do "progressive music" that is not, necessarily ROCK music at all ... so we might as well glorify mr. numbers, and the token weird/different band added to the list. And, sadly, the "progressive rock" thing only means that the majority of the bands are copies of copies and almost all of them have exactly the same bits and pieces ... no talent there, compared to the "original" folks that we consider important ... 

It's so weird for me to see comments like this ... I don't get it! And how does it help anything?

AND, Sun Ra did have guitars, bass, drims, keyboards and various solos, although designed somewhat differently than the regular format in the numbers listing. I end up wondering why the lack of appreciation and the tone of some of the parts of the conversation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2024 at 10:23
It might be interesting to point out, not so much because of the eventual addition of Sun Ra to Progarchives, but in general, that Sun Ra has discussed the connection of ancient civilisations with extraterrestrial life before Erich von Däniken.
Sun Ra was known for his unique musical style and equally unconventional beliefs. He claimed to have been visited by extraterrestrial beings who imparted knowledge to him. He often spoke about ancient civilisations and their potential connections to beings from other planets.

Sun Ra's philosophy was deeply rooted in Afrofuturism, a cultural aesthetic that combines elements of science fiction, historical fiction, fantasy, Afrocentrism, and magic realism with non-Western cosmologies. He believed that ancient civilisations on Earth had interactions with extraterrestrial entities that influenced their development and culture.
In his music and interviews, Sun Ra frequently alluded to the idea that humanity's origins and progress were intertwined with extraterrestrial intervention. His concept of "cosmic jazz" reflected his belief in a broader cosmic consciousness and interconnectedness between different worlds.

While Erich von Däniken is often credited with popularising the idea of ancient astronauts and extraterrestrial influences on human history through his book "Chariots of the Gods?" published in 1968, Sun Ra's discussions predate von Däniken's work. Sun Ra's musings on these topics can be seen as a precursor to the mainstream fascination with ancient astronaut theories that gained popularity in the late 20th century.



"Dance of the Cosmo-Aliens" from Sun Ra and His Myth Science Arkestra's album "Disco 3000", recorded live in Milan in 1978
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2024 at 15:26
Originally posted by Moyan Moyan wrote:

...
While Erich von Däniken is often credited with popularising the idea of ancient astronauts and extraterrestrial influences on human history through his book "Chariots of the Gods?" published in 1968, Sun Ra's discussions predate von Däniken's work. Sun Ra's musings on these topics can be seen as a precursor to the mainstream fascination with ancient astronaut theories that gained popularity in the late 20th century.
...
"Dance of the Cosmo-Aliens" from Sun Ra and His Myth Science Arkestra's album "Disco 3000", recorded live in Milan in 1978

Hi,

I wonder if you found the real "issue" ... bands with very strong spiritual this and that, and here, many folks dislike that ... TFTO is a perfect example, but then, Roundabout has none of that stuff. Sun Ra has too much of that spiritual stuff, even if we have no idea what it is or means. But, heck, we allow MAGMA to do it ... so why not Sun Ra? But we love the 2nd rate stuff quoting of a badly translated book for many years!

Just weird ... totally weird ... as to Sun Ra not being included ... though I hardly think that Mr. Sun Ra is worried about PA and their folks that make those decisions. His grave is already appreciated ... many on PA? Maybe they lack some of that spirit of greatness? I have no idea how to word the choices more often than not, but I bet that 9 out of 10 top "numbers" will all find their way to the database. 50 years later, today's audience finds Sun Ra poor ... and many folks don't like Miles improvising all over the place and having a laugh at music theory and a progressive definition!


Edited by moshkito - May 27 2024 at 15:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2024 at 22:30
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Moyan Moyan wrote:

...
While Erich von Däniken is often credited with popularising the idea of ancient astronauts and extraterrestrial influences on human history through his book "Chariots of the Gods?" published in 1968, Sun Ra's discussions predate von Däniken's work. Sun Ra's musings on these topics can be seen as a precursor to the mainstream fascination with ancient astronaut theories that gained popularity in the late 20th century.
...
"Dance of the Cosmo-Aliens" from Sun Ra and His Myth Science Arkestra's album "Disco 3000", recorded live in Milan in 1978

Hi,

I wonder if you found the real "issue" ... bands with very strong spiritual this and that, and here, many folks dislike that ... TFTO is a perfect example, but then, Roundabout has none of that stuff. Sun Ra has too much of that spiritual stuff, even if we have no idea what it is or means. But, heck, we allow MAGMA to do it ... so why not Sun Ra? But we love the 2nd rate stuff quoting of a badly translated book for many years!

Just weird ... totally weird ... as to Sun Ra not being included ... though I hardly think that Mr. Sun Ra is worried about PA and their folks that make those decisions. His grave is already appreciated ... many on PA? Maybe they lack some of that spirit of greatness? I have no idea how to word the choices more often than not, but I bet that 9 out of 10 top "numbers" will all find their way to the database. 50 years later, today's audience finds Sun Ra poor ... and many folks don't like Miles improvising all over the place and having a laugh at music theory and a progressive definition!
Sun Ra, man, he’s like totally part of the progressive music scene, you know? His whole vibe with ancient civilizations and aliens was like a major deal for his artistry. He was all about this wild idea that he was sent down from Saturn as this spiritual guru and musician, dig it? This cosmic mythology totally shaped his stage name “Sun Ra” and the name of his band “The Arkestra.” Sun Ra was all about how these ancient civilizations were like way ahead of their time with universal knowledge that could be tapped into through music, man. He was super into cultures like Egypt, the places like the Giza Plateau where the Great Pyramids are located, or the ancient city of Sumer, and even parts of Ethiopia, such as Lalibela, drawing inspiration from them to create these intricate tunes with exotic scales. And let’s not forget his lyrics - always dropping hints about extraterrestrial beings and cosmic consciousness. 
Sun Ra was out there pushing boundaries and exploring new horizons in the realm of progressive music. He was like the fusion taco of music, mixing up jazz, futurism, and rock rhythms into one groovy sonic burrito that’s out of this world, man!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2024 at 23:27
^

I’m the hugest Sun Ra and love most everything he’s done

He was a significant innovator and deserves credit for many musical contributions

However his works are not rooted in the world of jazz

The reason he’s not on this site is because his variety of fusion music isn’t rooted in rock

He dabbled in many ethnic musical styles but not one album I’ve heard would qualify as the jazz rock fusion that is suitable for PA

He’s on Jazz Music Archives so anyone can find him there


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2024 at 00:06
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^

I’m the hugest Sun Ra and love most everything he’s done

He was a significant innovator and deserves credit for many musical contributions

However his works are not rooted in the world of jazz

The reason he’s not on this site is because his variety of fusion music isn’t rooted in rock

He dabbled in many ethnic musical styles but not one album I’ve heard would qualify as the jazz rock fusion that is suitable for PA

He’s on Jazz Music Archives so anyone can find him there

Hey, dude, I totally get where you’re coming from with your opinion, but check it - rock music? It’s like totally vibing with those Afro-rhythms, man. You can feel that Sun Ra influence all up in there, right? And then you look at all these electronic music cats on Progarchives, and like, some of them ain’t really tapping into those roots, ya know? Not dissing the electronic wizards, they got their own groove in the progressive music scene for sure. But when you see them be of value in the database so much they even got their own spot labeled ‘progressive electronic,’ it kinda messes with your point, bro.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2024 at 23:47
Sun Ra created awesome progressive music featuring lush eclecticism and themes of space exploration and afrofuturism. Sadly, his work is criminally underrated among the prog community. Underapreciation of Sun Ra can be explained by the fact that his music is certainly not "prog for everyone," and systemic racism may also have influenced the reception of his music as progressive music. However, it's good to see that there is a growing appreciation and understanding for Sun Ra's innovative approach to music and his lasting influence on the world of progressive music in the 20th century.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2024 at 23:45
Great thread. In my humble opinion, Sun Ra's groundbreaking approach to music composition, thematic exploration of space, eclectic nature and atmosphere of his music, experimental and avantgarde attitude, and cultural commentary firmly position him within the late 60s and early 70s progressive music as a meta-genre, which could make Sun Ra's inclusion in Progarchives' "avant-prog" section not only justified but essential for a comprehensive understanding of this musical landscape.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2024 at 02:33
Sun Ra, the cosmic music pioneer and visionary, should be included in Progarchives' database 'cause his stuff transcends earthly boundaries with a fusion of avant-garde sounds, space-age topics, and progressive brilliance that challenges the very fabric of musical convention—making him not just a musician but an interstellar architect of sound!
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