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^Aside from DSOTM (and mainly because it's just been so overplayed on the radio) the only one by them I think is kind of overrated is Animals. "Dogs" is great but the other two main tracks ("sheep" and "pigs (three different ones") don't really do a whole lot for me. I think maybe part of this is because of the reduced role of Rick Wright. He's all over Wish You Were Here but other than the middle part of Dogs his synth seems to be mostly in the background which is a shame imo.
I tend to agree about Animals - I'm a Floyd fanatic and I always thought it was a tad disappointing (with an overall coldness to it) after DSOTM and WYWH, and with Rick, whose keyboards were always an essential ingredient to Floyd's great works, being practically reduced to the role of hired hand.
Tho for me Sheep is the best track, magnificently held together by Roger's bass.
According to my tastes/evaluations, I see many albums very (and little) overrated in PA Top 200.
For example, very overrated:
4) Rush: all the albums
overrated/little overrated:
8) Emerson Lake and Palmer: all the albums
I would have to take issue with the idea that everything is overrated.
Although I wouldn't go as far as crediting Rush with creating Prog metal they were as important as anyone and massively influential. I would say their seventies albums are fair game but Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures are no way overrated.
I am a fully paid up member of the ELP fan club so I'm passionate that they are regarded about right on PA. Emerson, Lake and Palmer's debut was a massive statement of intent in 1970 and rightly occupies a place in the Top 100 (lower reaches). After that Brain Salad Surgery tends to be more polarising but has a rating quite a bit lower than many prog albums of 1973 that are far less interesting. This is subjective of course. If you check the ratings of all their albums they seem about right. ELP were a better live band than album band but they have to be given due credit for their part in raising the benchmark with not just their debut but also Tarkus and Pictures At An Exhibition. This is me trying to be objective. Prog was a real movement that happened and not just an idea that was dreamt up by a bunch of college grads. It needed some rocket fuel and ELP were that.
I don't think anyone denies the importance of Rush for the development of heavy prog and their competence as musicians.
But otherwise, judgement on their records, from 2112 to Moving Pictures, is very divisive.
In Europe I don't think prog fans love them as much as in America (Canada and the US). I knew them little, before coming to this forum, and I was amazed that no less than four of their records hovered in the top 20-40 positions, close to the greatest prog masterpieces. So I tried to listen to them carefully, but I was quite disappointed, I didn't hear any masterpieces. All pleasant, all very well played, their records, but I don't see much other than hard rock played with virtuosity, and combining different pieces into one song to make it resemble a suite. Their most emblazoned record, Moving Pictures, is also the most commercial and the least prog, the most easy listening, with only one long composition - and I admit that is their best opera. This is obviously my opinion. I probably would have liked them better in my twenties.
The issue with EL&P is very different. They are British and are among the founders of prog. Their historical importance is immense. Enrico Merlin puts two of their albums in his book 1000 Records for a Century, where the criterion is musical innovation. EL&P were thus innovators in mixing cultured music with prog music, they influenced many prog artists who came after them, including the most famous Italian ones (Pfm, Banco, Orme). Having said that, if I evaluate the beauty of their albums, I think that they didnot churn out any masterpieces, that Tarkus suite, although innovative, is much less beautiful than the suites of Yes, Genesis, VdGG, King Crimson, that their records are full of low quality songs. I therefore put them in the little overrated ones, since they are not in the top positions of the Top 100.
I can say this, though: I would understand not just one record, but two EL&P records in the Top 100 or even Top 50 (the debut and Tarkus, or the debut and Brain Salad) more than four Rush records.
Which EL&P album do you like most?
Which is your ranking?
Moving Pictures is very highly rated by many musicians and almost as important as Red in some respects. Rolling Stone magazine put it at No3 in their list of the greatest prog albums behind DSOTM and SEBTP. I was very impressed by their list but I get that you are going on personal taste. We can all be a bit objective though if we try. I've always thought Hemispheres was overrated but so many put it on a pedestial I've had to rethink a bit. Nevertheless I think it is overpraised. Early 80's Rush though is important because they were able to change with the times but still put out music that had artistic integrity. I think they also learnt the art of consistency with those albums.
ELP wise it's always Brain Salad Surgery. I actually played the debut on Friday and fell asleep during Take A Pebble and had to take it off the CD player during Tank. I was bored which a horrible admission to make as a fan! The albums I rate the highest after BSS are all live albums - Pictures At Exhibition, Mar Y Sol (1972) and the triple. Those are the ones I listen to the most aside from BSS. If ELP hadn't included the drum solo on the triple album in the middle of Karn Evil 9 then I would probbaly not even bother with the studio album. I also believe that Works Volume One deserves a bit more praise although the rating of it is about right on PA. It has some bold ideas and I think that Pirates is the very zenith of their music as a band. Fanfare in it's album form is also great and was superbly produced. After that album and the Works tour it was steeply down hill all the way unfortunately.
According to my tastes/evaluations, I see many albums very (and little) overrated in PA Top 200.
For example, very overrated:
4) Rush: all the albums
overrated/little overrated:
8) Emerson Lake and Palmer: all the albums
I would have to take issue with the idea that everything is overrated.
Although I wouldn't go as far as crediting Rush with creating Prog metal they were as important as anyone and massively influential. I would say their seventies albums are fair game but Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures are no way overrated.
I am a fully paid up member of the ELP fan club so I'm passionate that they are regarded about right on PA. Emerson, Lake and Palmer's debut was a massive statement of intent in 1970 and rightly occupies a place in the Top 100 (lower reaches). After that Brain Salad Surgery tends to be more polarising but has a rating quite a bit lower than many prog albums of 1973 that are far less interesting. This is subjective of course. If you check the ratings of all their albums they seem about right. ELP were a better live band than album band but they have to be given due credit for their part in raising the benchmark with not just their debut but also Tarkus and Pictures At An Exhibition. This is me trying to be objective. Prog was a real movement that happened and not just an idea that was dreamt up by a bunch of college grads. It needed some rocket fuel and ELP were that.
I don't think anyone denies the importance of Rush for the development of heavy prog and their competence as musicians.
But otherwise, judgement on their records, from 2112 to Moving Pictures, is very divisive.
In Europe I don't think prog fans love them as much as in America (Canada and the US). I knew them little, before coming to this forum, and I was amazed that no less than four of their records hovered in the top 20-40 positions, close to the greatest prog masterpieces. So I tried to listen to them carefully, but I was quite disappointed, I didn't hear any masterpieces. All pleasant, all very well played, their records, but I don't see much other than hard rock played with virtuosity, and combining different pieces into one song to make it resemble a suite. Their most emblazoned record, Moving Pictures, is also the most commercial and the least prog, the most easy listening, with only one long composition - and I admit that is their best opera. This is obviously my opinion. I probably would have liked them better in my twenties.
The issue with EL&P is very different. They are British and are among the founders of prog. Their historical importance is immense. Enrico Merlin puts two of their albums in his book 1000 Records for a Century, where the criterion is musical innovation. EL&P were thus innovators in mixing cultured music with prog music, they influenced many prog artists who came after them, including the most famous Italian ones (Pfm, Banco, Orme). Having said that, if I evaluate the beauty of their albums, I think that they didnot churn out any masterpieces, that Tarkus suite, although innovative, is much less beautiful than the suites of Yes, Genesis, VdGG, King Crimson, that their records are full of low quality songs. I therefore put them in the little overrated ones, since they are not in the top positions of the Top 100.
I can say this, though: I would understand not just one record, but two EL&P records in the Top 100 or even Top 50 (the debut and Tarkus, or the debut and Brain Salad) more than four Rush records.
Which EL&P album do you like most?
Which is your ranking?
Moving Pictures is very highly rated by many musicians and almost as important as Red in some respects. Rolling Stone magazine put it at No3 in their list of the greatest prog albums behind DSOTM and SEBTP. I was very impressed by their list but I get that you are going on personal taste. We can all be a bit objective though if we try. I've always thought Hemispheres was overrated but so many put it on a pedestial I've had to rethink a bit. Nevertheless I think it is overpraised. Early 80's Rush though is important because they were able to change with the times but still put out music that had artistic integrity. I think they also learnt the art of consistency with those albums.
ELP wise it's always Brain Salad Surgery. I actually played the debut on Friday and fell asleep during Take A Pebble and had to take it off the CD player during Tank. I was bored which a horrible admission to make as a fan! The albums I rate the highest after BSS are all live albums - Pictures At Exhibition, Mar Y Sol (1972) and the triple. Those are the ones I listen to the most aside from BSS. If ELP hadn't included the drum solo on the triple album in the middle of Karn Evil 9 then I would probbaly not even bother with the studio album. I also believe that Works Volume One deserves a bit more praise although the rating of it is about right on PA. It has some bold ideas and I think that Pirates is the very zenith of their music as a band. Fanfare in it's album form is also great and was superbly produced. After that album and the Works tour it was steeply down hill all the way unfortunately.
I have discussed many times on this forum the dichotomy between what is my favorite and what is the best, that is, between subjectivity and objectivity. Just as I have discussed so much about the criteria to be used in making a ranking, I have also made rankings of my own to show the difference between evaluating quality and evaluating e.g. historical importance etc. But evidently we haven't crossed paths, otherwise you would know that my considerations are always made under the banner not of my tastes, but of what I consider the beauty of a work (objectively, although each of us tries to be objective subjectively). So everything I have written has nothing to do with following my tastes.
For me no Rush album should be in a Top 10 prog ranking, but I know that Rolling Stone, an American rock and roll magazine, likes Rush and other commercial rock works. (For me Rush never wrote anything comparable to Red). These are my evaluations, as subjective as yours and Rolling Stone's, no more and no less.
Rolling Stone's ranking however is not so different from PA's, all things considered, and even features a Can record in the top 10. And Emisphere is 12th and Brain Salad 13th.... I strongly disagree even with TDSOTM at the top. Dark Side ad Movin' Picture at first and third place are very excessive for me: they are two fine commercial album not properly prog. (Dark Side is better than Moving Picture).
I will try to listen to Works 1 by EL&P carefully.
Atually, My rankings are
Rush
1) Moving (4 stars)
2) Emisphere (between 3 and 4)
---
3) 2112 - 3 stars
4) Farewell
---
5) Permanent - 2 stars
6) Caress
EL&P
1) EL&P (3 stars)
2) Tarkus
3) Brain Salad
---
4) Trilogy (2 stars)
5) Pictures
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
Keith Emerson was such a huge influence on most keyboard players beginning with The Nice. Tony Banks has mentioned the importance of Keith Emerson and The Nice several times in different interviews and he mentions it from a creative standpoint that influenced bands around him.
Beggar's Opera, Rare Bird, Greenslade, and evidently a long list of people Emerson had an impact on....and it was ridiculous in a way as if to think one particular keyboardist had all the answers..and as a result of the reality a lot of outstanding keyboardists copied his style and sometimes even dressed like him or getting their hair styled like his...the image of Keith Emerson on the front cover of Trilogy.
Rick Wakeman started getting recognition when he joined Yes and he was thought to be great...and he was...however Emerson had already laid a foundation for many keyboardist to follow years before Wakeman joined Strawbs. Emerson seemed to be followed by keyboardists and he was taken very seriously.
On "Piano Improvisations" from Welcome Back his skill on piano is revealed ...in such a way that he grabs the perfect amount of essence of a style of music...and not unlike any virtuoso on piano would do...but he was in a Rock Band and it influenced a vast quanity of American keyboardists to imitate him . Imitating his presence..for example...because in many ways he was challenging and learning his pieces involved a lot of hard work...practice.
But just Keith Emerson alone was a huge influence on Progressive Rock and he was determined to break boundaries and try new creative ways for music. In a way you have to think of him as a great pioneer of Prog and electronics not unlike Paul Beaver , Wendy Carlos, Mort Garson , Ruth White, Bernard Krause who also consulted with Bob Moog. Paul Beaver had collaborated with someone to help design a Moog Synthesizer to Emerson's specifications. This has been mentioned in Moog history a few times...and Emerson was living the dream. He was interested in using the Moog Synthesizer in a Progressive Rock style of his own..which had been mimicked several times.
Several European Prog bands auditioning drummers that could play a fast and clean style ...as what is heard on The Barbarian or several underground European Progressive Rock bands of the 70s needing a bass player that could sing with the power of Greg Lake ...in his early days of King Crimson and ELP. Not many bands could reach these levels...but they took the fringe aspect of it and somehow pulled off the style...while other bands with skilled keyboardists were impressive...Trace...The Enid...and others
I would hear John McLaughlin and Jean Luc Ponty producing these timeless solos on Apocalypse and I was floored. Both of them were universally expressive during improvisation. I had difficulties in understanding how fans of the early Mahavishnu could not like this. ...
Hi,
In my book, McLaughlin is way better at improvisation because he works on it time and again, specially with many foreign players alongside, and his excursions into other musics are neat, different, and sometimes not to everyone's taste, I don't think.
I agree! I love to watch this clip over and over!!
According to my tastes/evaluations, I see many albums very (and little) overrated in PA Top 200.
For example, very overrated:
4) Rush: all the albums
overrated/little overrated:
8) Emerson Lake and Palmer: all the albums
I would have to take issue with the idea that everything is overrated.
Although I wouldn't go as far as crediting Rush with creating Prog metal they were as important as anyone and massively influential. I would say their seventies albums are fair game but Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures are no way overrated.
I am a fully paid up member of the ELP fan club so I'm passionate that they are regarded about right on PA. Emerson, Lake and Palmer's debut was a massive statement of intent in 1970 and rightly occupies a place in the Top 100 (lower reaches). After that Brain Salad Surgery tends to be more polarising but has a rating quite a bit lower than many prog albums of 1973 that are far less interesting. This is subjective of course. If you check the ratings of all their albums they seem about right. ELP were a better live band than album band but they have to be given due credit for their part in raising the benchmark with not just their debut but also Tarkus and Pictures At An Exhibition. This is me trying to be objective. Prog was a real movement that happened and not just an idea that was dreamt up by a bunch of college grads. It needed some rocket fuel and ELP were that.
I don't think anyone denies the importance of Rush for the development of heavy prog and their competence as musicians.
But otherwise, judgement on their records, from 2112 to Moving Pictures, is very divisive.
In Europe I don't think prog fans love them as much as in America (Canada and the US). I knew them little, before coming to this forum, and I was amazed that no less than four of their records hovered in the top 20-40 positions, close to the greatest prog masterpieces. So I tried to listen to them carefully, but I was quite disappointed, I didn't hear any masterpieces. All pleasant, all very well played, their records, but I don't see much other than hard rock played with virtuosity, and combining different pieces into one song to make it resemble a suite. Their most emblazoned record, Moving Pictures, is also the most commercial and the least prog, the most easy listening, with only one long composition - and I admit that is their best opera. This is obviously my opinion. I probably would have liked them better in my twenties.
The issue with EL&P is very different. They are British and are among the founders of prog. Their historical importance is immense. Enrico Merlin puts two of their albums in his book 1000 Records for a Century, where the criterion is musical innovation. EL&P were thus innovators in mixing cultured music with prog music, they influenced many prog artists who came after them, including the most famous Italian ones (Pfm, Banco, Orme). Having said that, if I evaluate the beauty of their albums, I think that they didnot churn out any masterpieces, that Tarkus suite, although innovative, is much less beautiful than the suites of Yes, Genesis, VdGG, King Crimson, that their records are full of low quality songs. I therefore put them in the little overrated ones, since they are not in the top positions of the Top 100.
I can say this, though: I would understand not just one record, but two EL&P records in the Top 100 or even Top 50 (the debut and Tarkus, or the debut and Brain Salad) more than four Rush records.
Which EL&P album do you like most?
Which is your ranking?
Moving Pictures is very highly rated by many musicians and almost as important as Red in some respects. Rolling Stone magazine put it at No3 in their list of the greatest prog albums behind DSOTM and SEBTP. I was very impressed by their list but I get that you are going on personal taste. We can all be a bit objective though if we try. I've always thought Hemispheres was overrated but so many put it on a pedestial I've had to rethink a bit. Nevertheless I think it is overpraised. Early 80's Rush though is important because they were able to change with the times but still put out music that had artistic integrity. I think they also learnt the art of consistency with those albums.
ELP wise it's always Brain Salad Surgery. I actually played the debut on Friday and fell asleep during Take A Pebble and had to take it off the CD player during Tank. I was bored which a horrible admission to make as a fan! The albums I rate the highest after BSS are all live albums - Pictures At Exhibition, Mar Y Sol (1972) and the triple. Those are the ones I listen to the most aside from BSS. If ELP hadn't included the drum solo on the triple album in the middle of Karn Evil 9 then I would probbaly not even bother with the studio album. I also believe that Works Volume One deserves a bit more praise although the rating of it is about right on PA. It has some bold ideas and I think that Pirates is the very zenith of their music as a band. Fanfare in it's album form is also great and was superbly produced. After that album and the Works tour it was steeply down hill all the way unfortunately.
I have discussed many times on this forum the dichotomy between what is my favorite and what is the best, that is, between subjectivity and objectivity. Just as I have discussed so much about the criteria to be used in making a ranking, I have also made rankings of my own to show the difference between evaluating quality and evaluating e.g. historical importance etc. But evidently we haven't crossed paths, otherwise you would know that my considerations are always made under the banner not of my tastes, but of what I consider the beauty of a work (objectively, although each of us tries to be objective subjectively). So everything I have written has nothing to do with following my tastes.
For me no Rush album should be in a Top 10 prog ranking, but I know that Rolling Stone, an American rock and roll magazine, likes Rush and other commercial rock works. (For me Rush never wrote anything comparable to Red). These are my evaluations, as subjective as yours and Rolling Stone's, no more and no less.
Rolling Stone's ranking however is not so different from PA's, all things considered, and even features a Can record in the top 10. And Emisphere is 12th and Brain Salad 13th.... I strongly disagree even with TDSOTM at the top. Dark Side ad Movin' Picture at first and third place are very excessive for me: they are two fine commercial album not properly prog. (Dark Side is better than Moving Picture).
I will try to listen to Works 1 by EL&P carefully.
Atually, My rankings are
Rush
1) Moving (4 stars)
2) Emisphere (between 3 and 4)
---
3) 2112 - 3 stars
4) Farewell
---
5) Permanent - 2 stars
6) Caress
EL&P
1) EL&P (3 stars)
2) Tarkus
3) Brain Salad
---
4) Trilogy (2 stars)
5) Pictures
Beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder as someone once said. I think the only way to be objective is to take account of other opinions which is why I like a rating site. We also value different things and this the prism through which we judge.
I think for ELP studio albums
1. BSS 4.4 (PA 4.17)
2. Trilogy 4.3 (PA 4.14)
3. E,L and P 4.1 (4.24)
4. Tarkus 3.8 (PA 4.07)
5. Works Volume One 3.3 (PA 2.96)
Some are overrated and some underrated imo, overall if you add up total ratings they are not that far off
For Rush (top 5)
1. Moving Pictures 4.6 (PA 4.38)
2. Permanent Waves 4.4 (PA 4.27)
3. 2112 4.2 (PA 4.11)
4. AFTK 4.1 (PA 4.34)
5. Hemispheres 3.9 (PA 4.38)
I think that AFTK and Hemispheres didn't really improve that much on 2112 which was also more historically important. PA is about right with MP and PW but I would still elevate them a bit higher personally.
Close To The Edge - although, TBH, I don’t really like it very much at all, so maybe I’m wrong to include it here!
Marbles - it IS a good album, but it’s not great. Too much filler!
If you dislike CTTE more than just a little that's ok too but I'm wondering what it is about the album that puts you off so much.
Why are you posting my quote if you aren't going to answer the question.
I’ve tried twice but I don’t think the gremlins want to let me explain….
OK, let’s try this again….
I’ve tried many times with CTTE but it (the title track) just sounds horrible to my ears. And I don’t really like Steve Howe’s playing in general….
You mean his crazy sounding improvisation at the intro of CTTE? He uses a bit too much treble on his guitar. Is that what you mean?...or is it his phrasing?
Some of the most lousy sounding guitar soloing is on an album called The Song Remains The Same. It is sloppy and it is to my understanding that thousands of people made adjustments and acceptance for it. That seems rather backwards for people that are snobby about music. I don't get it? You're either snobby or not? Why do people accept that ? Why because it's Jimmy Page? In other words...its accepted that he is pitifully sloppy, but no one else can be right? 😆 It's a back in the woods way of thinking. If a guitarist is asked to cover "Heartbreaker" and he doesn't play sloppy like Page then he's disliked? Yeah that's it. That position is moronic
It is sloppy and it is to my understanding that thousands of people made adjustments and acceptance for it. That seems rather backwards for people that are snobby about music. I don't get it? You're either snobby or not? Why do people accept that ? Why because it's Jimmy Page? In other words...its accepted that he is pitifully sloppy, but no one else can be right? 😆 It's a back in the woods way of thinking. If a guitarist is asked to cover "Heartbreaker" and he doesn't play sloppy like Page then he's disliked? Yeah that's it. That position is moronic
Hi,
I wonder how many musicians find "sloppy" a good way to find new things to do and learn.
It's kinda weird when you hear RF say "bollocks" when he misses one of his exercises, however, if his history is any example, in 50 years, he has had more chances than anyone to be "sloppy" and eventually come up with something else for another day.
As for like or dislike? ... I don't exactly think in terms of the subjective ways of looking at many of these folks ... I never think that they are not exactly looking to find new ways and things to do in a future setting. Sloppy might just as well be another word for "new" ... until we get used to it.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Easy, The Yes Album, I've heard it several times, it's not good. Perhaps I would've though differently If I had been there upon it's release, but it doesn't hold up. Time and a Word and their debut are better.
The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.
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AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: