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Prog albums you think are a little overrated |
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Prog-jester 
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Joined: June 05 2005 Location: Love Beach Status: Offline Points: 5871 |
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 Posted: July 19 2024 at 11:19 |
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Psychedelic Paul
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Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 40087 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 11:58 |
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Strongly disagree. That's the album that finally broke down my Resistance to the sound of poor man's Gabriel imitator Peter Nicholls and Resistance still remains my favourite IQ album to this day. Horses for courses, the silence and sold sources.
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Logan
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Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35804 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 12:58 |
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I generally am not keen on the overrated and underrated terms unless one can refer to specific claims that are true or false, demonstrable, verifiable or unverifiable, and arguments that are valid or invalid / faulty. There is little point in arguing tastes and saying that my opinion of art is better than other people's -- which is pretty arrogant and can lead to or be a sign of very insular thinking. Like what music you like, dislike what you will, to each his or her own tastes. We all experience music differently to some extent. We have physical differences, mental differences... different psyches... experiences, associations, dispositions. That said, a little less valued by me or a lot less than the majority opinion that I have observed would be Yes' Close to the Edge. Well, I'd give it three stars. With Magma, MDK (the studio album) is often said to be THE Zeuhl classic, and I understand and won't disagree, but while I used to love it, it has gone down in esteem for me (live versions are great). I Like Magma's debut the most. Thinking Plague's In Extremis would be another (much prefer earlier Thinking Plague). I understand the love for Captain Beefheart's Troutmask Replica, and I have loved the album before, but unadventurous me would rather the comfort of Safe As Milk. I would have said Tangerine Dream's Phaedra at one time, but now I love it.
Edited by Logan - July 19 2024 at 13:25 |
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18269 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 13:20 |
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Weaker than Nomzamo? I'll say it probably shouldn't have been a double but I don't think it's that bad. Maybe on par with Frequency (imo).
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18269 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 13:22 |
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Why are you posting my quote if you aren't going to answer the question.
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Jacob Schoolcraft
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Joined: December 22 2021 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 1071 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 13:31 |
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I remember in the 70s when Mahavishnu Orchestra released Apocalypse and Visions Of Emerald Beyond. A very large dosage of opinions from fans of the McLaughlin, Cobham,Laird, Hammer and Goodman line up were super negative and based on personal disappointment over the original band going their separate ways.
I would hear John McLaughlin and Jean Luc Ponty producing these timeless solos on Apocalypse and I was floored. Both of them were universally expressive during improvisation. I had difficulties in understanding how fans of the early Mahavishnu could not like this. Maybe fans saw the first line up to be iconic in the sense that it changed Fusion. It was innovative. The 5 of them on stage in 1972 was a unique experience. Pieces like "Dance Of Maya" and "Birds Of Fire" filled the air with strato bombers and goblin fires and mystery. People desired for that to continue. John McLaughlin obviously was taking a different direction musically. Apocalypse and Emerald Beyond creating a different vibe . They featured singers and were spiritually different from Birds Of Fire and Inner Mounting Flame. I enjoy both periods. A lot of hard-core supporters don't. Edited by Jacob Schoolcraft - July 19 2024 at 13:32 |
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verslibre
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Joined: July 01 2004 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 17136 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 14:32 |
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When the line-up thoroughly consists of powerhouses, it's virtually guaranteed to be a temporary one (there are a few exceptions). Hammer and Cobham immediately jumped off to lasting solo careers, the former hitting the proverbial commercial jackpot a decade later. Goodman made some solo albums and eventually ended up in the Dregs when they needed a violinist. Laird found plenty to do and also made a solo album. Hammer was the first to decide he was done when he learned McLaughlin was getting all the writing credit, even for a pure improvisation like "Sapphire Bullets of Pure Love." I sure am glad Jan bailed, because right off the bat we got Like Children by Hammer & Goodman (which I prefer to anything M.O. did), the exceptional solo recording The First Seven Days, followed by his participation in Elvin Jones' On the Mountain and John Abercrombie's masterwork Timeless. Then: Jan Hammer Group! One win after another! 
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Prog-jester
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Joined: June 05 2005 Location: Love Beach Status: Offline Points: 5871 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 14:33 |
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essexboyinwales
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 15:09 |
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I’ve tried twice but I don’t think the gremlins want to let me explain…. |
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Heaven is waiting but waiting is Hell
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essexboyinwales
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 15:10 |
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Yes, weaker than Nomzamo and all other IQ albums! Frequency is waaaaaay better…. |
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Heaven is waiting but waiting is Hell
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Psychedelic Paul
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Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 40087 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 15:45 |
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Funnily enough, I can't remember any songs from Resistance either, but it's still my favourite IQ album.
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richardh
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Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 28029 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 16:26 |
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I would have to take issue with the idea that everything is overrated. Although I wouldn't go as far as crediting Rush with creating Prog metal they were as important as anyone and massively influential. I would say their seventies albums are fair game but Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures are no way overrated. I am a fully paid up member of the ELP fan club so I'm passionate that they are regarded about right on PA. Emerson, Lake and Palmer's debut was a massive statement of intent in 1970 and rightly occupies a place in the Top 100 (lower reaches). After that Brain Salad Surgery tends to be more polarising but has a rating quite a bit lower than many prog albums of 1973 that are far less interesting. This is subjective of course. If you check the ratings of all their albums they seem about right. ELP were a better live band than album band but they have to be given due credit for their part in raising the benchmark with not just their debut but also Tarkus and Pictures At An Exhibition. This is me trying to be objective. Prog was a real movement that happened and not just an idea that was dreamt up by a bunch of college grads. It needed some rocket fuel and ELP were that. |
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cstack3
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VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 7264 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 17:14 |
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All of them.
That is why they are "progressive." Pompous, over-the-top, overly serious about themselves. Spinal Tap with Mellotrons. Ask Rick, he'll tell you. Edited by cstack3 - July 19 2024 at 17:17 |
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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
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ThyroidGlands
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Joined: December 29 2023 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 170 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 17:40 |
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My favorite studio album by Magma is either Emehntehtt-Re or Felicite-Thosz. MDK is superb, but its full splendor isn't quite captured in the studio. I believe the best version is the one from Trianon. Without a doubt, it's the greatest zeuhl recording of all time.
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Bloody bloody racket and rumpus
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18269 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 18:22 |
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ThyroidGlands
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 18:29 |
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😁
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Bloody bloody racket and rumpus
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Jacob Schoolcraft
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Joined: December 22 2021 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 1071 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 18:32 |
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When the line-up thoroughly consists of powerhouses, it's virtually guaranteed to be a temporary one (there are a few exceptions). Hammer and Cobham immediately jumped off to lasting solo careers, the former hitting the proverbial commercial jackpot a decade later. Goodman made some solo albums and eventually ended up in the Dregs when they needed a violinist. Laird found plenty to do and also made a solo album. Hammer was the first to decide he was done when he learned McLaughlin was getting all the writing credit, even for a pure improvisation like "Sapphire Bullets of Pure Love." I sure am glad Jan bailed, because right off the bat we got Like Children by Hammer & Goodman (which I prefer to anything M.O. did), the exceptional solo recording The First Seven Days, followed by his participation in Elvin Jones' On the Mountain and John Abercrombie's masterwork Timeless. Then: Jan Hammer Group! One win after another! [/QUOTEI like it all...and the early Jan Hammer solo albums were really special. Like Children,The First Seven Days and Oh Yeah are outstanding. They really hold my interest. The first 5 Billy Cobham albums are creative and unique. A very interesting collection to have. |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17510 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 19:09 |
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Hi, In my book, McLaughlin is way better at improvisation because he works on it time and again, specially with many foreign players alongside, and his excursions into other musics are neat, different, and sometimes not to everyone's taste, I don't think. Jean Luc Ponty is very good, but in a classical way ... he is not, in my book a good improvisational player, and I think he is more in sync with the chords and notes and then joins in ... unlike someone like Shankar ... on a Bruce Springsteen rehearsal and shows ... when Bruce asked him ... what chord you in, man? ... and Shankar replies ... Bruce, my friend, yo just play and I join in! That's not to say that JLP is not good, but I do not see in him as much freedom as we could probably see ... and this reminds me of a show at the Hollywood Bowl one time, when the great flute buffoon, was paired up with a jazz flute/woodwinds master ... and that night the buffon showed that he could not improvise, and was lost half the time. The bootleg (recording was never released to my knowledge!). showed it to be more of a comedy than anything else ... and a serious statement about how much a lot of well known classical music folks didn't really know crap about music! JLP, for me, even in his solo albums, is REALLY WELL THOUGHT OUT and defined ... and that makes it look like the solos are better and that he is improvising ... he didn't have to ... he had the studio to be able to change/add/subtract some things. When I saw him with RTF a few years back in Eugene, I did not feel like he was improvising, or had the spotlight that Corea and Clark showed, or the guitarist (Gamboli? sp) ... and it felt like he was merely making sure his parts were clean ... and well done, but he never smiled or played "hot" like his other friends. But I'm not sure that RTF had worked solos for him, since he did not tour with them all the time, due to his many commitments. Corea and Clarke didn't need a violin that night, or any other night! But their "improvisational abilities" were small and amounted to a few seconds on a transition or the like. Another great example of improvisation with someone that is note/composition inclined, is Chick Corea's thing with Hiromi ... she was free flowing, and you can easily see his mind going ... start on this chord ... or equivalent ... he never really had the smile and free flow that Hiromi showed. She went by "colors" ... he went by notes and chords ... and the difference, was massive. It's hard to not appreciate Chick Corea, but on that night Hiromi, stole the show and then some.
Edited by moshkito - July 19 2024 at 19:15 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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presdoug
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Joined: January 24 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 8615 |
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Posted: July 19 2024 at 19:29 |
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: July 20 2024 at 06:05 |
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I don't think anyone denies the importance of Rush for the development of heavy prog and their competence as musicians. But otherwise, judgement on their records, from 2112 to Moving Pictures, is very divisive. In Europe I don't think prog fans love them as much as in America (Canada and the US). I knew them little, before coming to this forum, and I was amazed that no less than four of their records hovered in the top 20-40 positions, close to the greatest prog masterpieces. So I tried to listen to them carefully, but I was quite disappointed, I didn't hear any masterpieces. All pleasant, all very well played, their records, but I don't see much other than hard rock played with virtuosity, and combining different pieces into one song to make it resemble a suite. Their most emblazoned record, Moving Pictures, is also the most commercial and the least prog, the most easy listening, with only one long composition - and I admit that is their best opera. This is obviously my opinion. I probably would have liked them better in my twenties. The issue with EL&P is very different. They are British and are among the founders of prog. Their historical importance is immense. Enrico Merlin puts two of their albums in his book 1000 Records for a Century, where the criterion is musical innovation. EL&P were thus innovators in mixing cultured music with prog music, they influenced many prog artists who came after them, including the most famous Italian ones (Pfm, Banco, Orme). Having said that, if I evaluate the beauty of their albums, I think that they didnot churn out any masterpieces, that Tarkus suite, although innovative, is much less beautiful than the suites of Yes, Genesis, VdGG, King Crimson, that their records are full of low quality songs. I therefore put them in the little overrated ones, since they are not in the top positions of the Top 100. I can say this, though: I would understand not just one record, but two EL&P records in the Top 100 or even Top 50 (the debut and Tarkus, or the debut and Brain Salad) more than four Rush records. Which EL&P album do you like most? Which is your ranking?
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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essexboyinwales wrote: