Does prog make you smart?

Dr. Octagon, aka Dr. Dooom, aka Robbie Analog, but best known as Kool Keith really is a genius. He has two classic albums--his album with DJ Q-bert as Dr. Octagon, "Dr. Octagonecologyst," and Kool Keith's "Black Elvis/Lost in Space." He has as many pseudonyms as he does albums and each one really does has its own distinct characteristics. His raps are incredibly creative and out there. The Dr. Octagon album is also a classic in the turntable world for DJ Q-Bert's exhausting work. And this is someone you'll never hear on the radio. Hip hop, just like any good music, has it's water-downed, corporate mainstream scene, and it's vital, creative underground scenes.

And to adress some of the more ignorant arguments: Sampling is in fact a creative art. It's a re-creation and re-working of found materials. Do you dismiss Joseph Cornell's work? And a lot of hip hop's techniques--programmed beats, tape loops, studio assemblage, etc has its roots in prog and  other experimental music. The Moog is nothing but an analog sampler. Frippertronics was pre-recorded tape loops. The Beatles and Brian Wilson were assembling tracks in the studio that would be impossible to recreate live back in the sixties.

And if you've ever seen a hip hop DJ work live, well, a DJ solo can be as athletic, as bombastic, and as tedious as a Carl Palmer drum solo.

And for a great example of sampling being a creative act, listen to The Avalanches' "Since I Left You." It's an entire album made of nothing but found samples. It's as varied and creative as anything with "real" instruments.


Edited by Matt0001

Matt, Rap is a genre based in a couple of chords repeated 100 times with a guy speaking (Yes I don't consider that singing) fast. The lyrics may be intelligent (even when I haven't heard many of this kind) but it's not music. It's almost as reading with a musical backup, in this case absolutely repetitive and lack of talent.

I really don't know very much about DJ's or even care about them, so answer me a question, Do they create music or do they mix other people's recordings adding some sounds, because I searched for a definition and found this one:

DJ: A person who mixes songs together for public performance. DJs perform on the radio or in clubs.

If this is all they do where is the creation and the talent?

Iván

i have seen djs work many a time, and they work their ass off just as much as any other musician. though they don't actually "play" an instrument. they take something and mix it with another, and create something new,

I never said they are not working, I'm sure N'Sync and Backstreet boys worked very hard, but this DJ's are not creating anything new, not a single chord or even a note.

For God's sake, they are not even performing, they are usinga complex recorder a couple of turntables and a very expensive computer to reproduce music. They are simply using what more talented people created and mixing it, maybe it's hard, but breaking your back at the office is also hard, and nobody will pay a dime to see us work.

rap isn't always the same loop set on repeat. many many rap songs are structured in, what can be, very complex styles.

Probably, even when I didn't had the chance to listen them, but you should accept this intelligent rap may represent 1 or 2% of the genre.

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

ivan_2068 wrote: Matt, Rap is a genre based in a couple of chords repeated 100 times with a guy speaking (Yes I don't consider that singing) fast. The lyrics may be intelligent (even when I haven't heard many of this kind) but it's not music. It's almost as reading with a musical backup, in this case absolutely repetitive and lack of talent.

Man, please don't generalize a genre you obviously know nothing about. You still aren't talking about a LARGE QUANTITY of rap music that has beats that aren't loops, intellectual lyrics, and amazing emotion. Just as the Poppy music you hear on the radio is not rock, the poppy music you hear on the radio isn't rap. I thought you guys would have that figured out...

ivan_2068 wrote: DJ's are not creating anything new, not a single chord or even a note.

You are talking about the DJ's that perform in clubs/on the radio. This is not the type of "artist" DJ.


Edited by Root Pepper

I really have no problem with good rap. (I know, most say there is no such thing)

But seriously, rap has the potential for good use. It can be used to convey real emotions, thoughts, and ideas. My problem with rap is that most rap artists do ONLY rap, and in doing so repeat cliches, recycle material, and sell out before they even begin writing. Most is pointless garbage, mass-manufactured like any other pop music. But it has potential, except a lot of people are biased against it since it has remained stagnant and BAD for so long. Some artists, I think, are trying to fix this. The only two rappers/hip-hop artists I can stand or even like are Eminem, Outkast, and Linkin Park (which is actually rap-rock). For instance, Jon Anderson uses a rap-like vocal on "Close to the Edge". But is it bad? NO! It's well-thought out, the music is original, the thoughts are progressive and the intent is not base and regressive as most rap is. I suspect that soon, whether we like it or not, progressive rap/hip-hop will appear (actually, it probably already has...but nobody cares yet).

But all that nonwithstanding, I still hate most rap because most of it sucks, frankly.

ivan_2068 wrote: Hey Root Pepper, then you're talking as underground or cult rap bands and DJ's. Pronbably they don't represent 1% of the genre. In the case of Progressive Rock and Rock music, the good artists represent a very big percentage of the genre. So if we talk about a genre we must talk aboutthe general rule, not about the exceptions. Iván

And just where are you getting these numbers? They're just pulled out of the same place where you seem to keep your head. Hip hop is not out to get you. If you don't like it, that's fine. It will progress and move on without you. Just as it has for the past thirty years. Just like rock'n'roll before it, it will not go away.

And just where are you getting these numbers? They're just pulled out of the same place where you seem to keep your head.

I would only ask you to keep the level of the discussion Matt, this weekend I've been involved in more than one and all have been absolutely civilized.

Of course the percentage is not exact, it's only a pleonasm to make clear those good prog and hip hop bands are the absolute minority (if they exist).

And it's obvious, every day hundreeds of new rap and hip hop bands go to the labels to try to have a chance and most of them have to play what the labels and radio want, if they want to survive they have to play crap, if not well they turn to underground bands that die of hunger, on this days only a few have the courage to make things fot theoir love to art.

If you don't like it, that's fine. It will progress and move on without you. Just as it has for the past thirty years. Just like rock'n'roll before it, it will not go away.

It's true, I don't like it, I also believe most of it has no artistic value, but I don't think it will progress, I believe they will vanish as Disco, New Wave or Punk did before.

Iván

but do we really want 20 min + rap epics?

 

^ In Short....NO

but after you listened to it you wouldn't be able to tell us how it sounded due to the fatal brain damage it would cause.b