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Logan View Drop Down
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    Posted: April 19 2024 at 10:29
Speaking of covers (I love lots and lots of covers and one of the best covered bands for me is Cardiacs, who I unabashedly love).

"To Go Off and Things" By Cardiacs, performed by Napalm Death





Edited by Logan - April 19 2024 at 10:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2024 at 10:25
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

...Depends on which side of the mirror you stand! Some folks are afraid of that mirror!...


This reminded me of something I read and idea I have heard expressed in various ways, "Don't point out other people's flaws because you're not perfect! You have to look in the mirror before you can look out the window."

Quote Negative, for the sake of negativity, is wrong and down right bad. I am not exactly being negative, as much as I am trying to challenge the status quo ... which has a tendency to not say anything and make a comment on a thread that is unnecessary.


I would say that one should not be too confident that one knows what the status quo is and not make broad assumptions about how people think. An issue with you i have had has been that you seem to make negative assumptions about people commonly, how they think, and you don't provide strong evidence or arguments to justify your position, often vague anecdotal evidence. And when people ask for specifics you tend to ignore. I have seen you complain about others perceived negativity; you seem so negative when it comes to your perceptions and assumptions about people. This has led to many, many complaints and many calls to have you banned. I think you may still benefit from holding a mirror to yourself and try to understand how others see you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2024 at 09:53
Gwar also did a cover of carry on wayward son. Yeah, there's a lot of strange and unexpected cover songs out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2024 at 07:06
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Please help the music ... not make it look like it is a left over ... that you throw at the dog or cat, or chickens, or pig! Cry

You are, hands down, the most negative person in this forum when it comes to judging musicians and their fans.
...

Hi,

Depends on which side of the mirror you stand! Some folks are afraid of that mirror!

Negative, for the sake of negativity, is wrong and down right bad. I am not exactly being negative, as much as I am trying to challenge the status quo ... which has a tendency to not say anything and make a comment on a thread that is unnecessary.

You didn't get to see a lot of what I did in the history of rock music ... Roger is not the only one that doesn't like it, and he has a point ... when folks are beating each other up for a piece of the pig. And then you make personal statements, because ... well ... I don't know ... maybe you have nothing else to add to the thread!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2024 at 00:29
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Please help the music ... not make it look like it is a left over ... that you throw at the dog or cat, or chickens, or pig! Cry

You are, hands down, the most negative person in this forum when it comes to judging musicians and their fans.

EDIT: At least that's how I perceive it. You do you of course, but sometimes I think you could filter out some of the negativity in your posts and focus on the positive aspects.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - April 19 2024 at 01:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Valdez1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2024 at 21:56
I like Humble Pie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2024 at 18:26
[REDACTED]
have this picture of Axltl Rose instead:


Edited by Hrychu - April 18 2024 at 18:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2024 at 16:36
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
Oh, I don't know....ELP's "Pictures at an Exhibition" was one long cover, yes?  
...

Hi,

Bizarre notion .. to say the least, and it just shows how much "music" so many rock aficionados look at music history ... there are no less than at least 20/25 recordings of the whole thing that can be discussed, all of them, (many times) considered different interpretations, but all with the same title and "complete".

If there were versions by Leonard Bernstein or Herbert von Karahan, I would have them in my collection. 

It's tough saying this ... and when you see the live performance of Jeff Beck doing one of the best known arias, we still can not appreciate it, and still look at it as just another rock song solo and what not.

Please show how well versed you are in music ... instead of delineating something that is only a "cover" in rock terms because we dislike classical music and tend to shine on any band doing it. And before ELP's version, The Nice had also done many pieces of classical music.


How well-versed am I in music?  Not sure how to answer.  University studies in music (University of Illinois), former bandmate with Robert Fripp's GuitarCraft student (the amazing Lon Jones), I eschewed a career in professional music to pursue science and research.  Both exist comfortably in my mind.  I'm as good on electric guitar as many who are mentioned on this website.  

PA is not an academic research site, M, but a public forum.  Do you deny that ELP's "HoeDown" is a cover?  

I don't post past musical works online since I would need permission of many people to do so.  Let's just say that, when I pick up my Rickenbacker bass guitar, I warm up by playing Chris Squire bass lines such as CTTE.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2024 at 08:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2024 at 08:08
Ian

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https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2024 at 08:01
^ Maybe you have too negative a view of covers?

Don't take them so seriously Cool



Edited by MikeEnRegalia - April 18 2024 at 08:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2024 at 07:32
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
Oh, I don't know....ELP's "Pictures at an Exhibition" was one long cover, yes?  
...

Hi,

Bizarre notion .. to say the least, and it just shows how much "music" so many rock aficionados look at music history ... there are no less than at least 20/25 recordings of the whole thing that can be discussed, all of them, (many times) considered different interpretations, but all with the same title and "complete".

If there were versions by Leonard Bernstein or Herbert von Karahan, I would have them in my collection. 

It's tough saying this ... and when you see the live performance of Jeff Beck doing one of the best known arias, we still can not appreciate it, and still look at it as just another rock song solo and what not.

Please show how well versed you are in music ... instead of delineating something that is only a "cover" in rock terms because we dislike classical music and tend to shine on any band doing it. And before ELP's version, The Nice had also done many pieces of classical music.

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
I rarely hear young musicians playing covers, except for either practice or for kicks.   I do notice quite a bit of innovation going on, and experimentation.  

To make way for the young, the old gotta die. 

Innovation and experimentation has very little to do with age. There are just as many (comparatively speaking) experimenting, today, that are young and old all the same. Innovation has to do more with your internal person, than it does "music", or some kind of colorful bullmerde, that folks might think explain what the experimentation and improvisation is all about ... 

The real issue is the education, and places like PA ... posting stuff that is demeaning to the "talent" that likes to improvise and experiment ... because in the end, it tends to intimidate the artist, into thinking that what he/she is doing is not right, and needs to be redone with a more "recognizable" style and (worse ... !!!) some lyrics so folks know what is going on!

But most of us here, are afraid to say something about experimentations and improvisations, because the words for it are difficult to come by ... in general, if you can not FEEL, and LIVE in these pieces, your ability to say something interesting or of value won't show up!

Please help the music ... not make it look like it is a left over ... that you throw at the dog or cat, or chickens, or pig! Cry
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 15:59
Originally posted by Stigfzm Stigfzm wrote:

Well, actually prog is not the only case. In fact, the whole genre of rocking music is definite to face the same problem of exposure. We can put another musical genre as a comparison: Classical Music. As Sir Paul McCartney once opined in his days in the Beatles during an interview, "I think rock n' roll is today's classical music", he just embraced the predominance of rock music in the market over the real classical music at that time and admitted the popularity of classical music before that of rock. However, I think, there's an undertone there: rock music will face the same promblem of classical music----- being dated. Just look at sales, you will see the Asian groups and pop electrical songs heading the hit list for a long time. There is certain rock groups which gain popularity just for a while, however. The whole rock genre has already experienced lack of exposure and low sales. It appears to be secondary in the music market. Just like classical music during the 1950s and 1960s. 
    And the classical 70s prog, obviously, is among the lowest of low in the hierachy of rock due to its issues like being too difficult to start with and being too bourgeois or elite-like. What's more, I think prog's mission to influence musicians has come to a halt these days. When we talk about 70s music, definitely, King Crimson, Genesis, Pink Floyd, ELP are big names we can't avoid whose influence was still carried into the 80s when Talking Heads, Marillion, Rush stepped up to the forefronts whith their legacies. (Btw: We can also make a bold claim: no prog in 70s, no Bohemian Rhapsody.) Math rock, opera rock, to name a few, all inherit prog's boldness in blending different musc elements. Even Kurt Kobain received KC's power of Red and started the legend we all know. But, now just tell me, besides new prog, have any famous rock stars during the two decades after 2000 specially mentioned 70s prog as the greatest impact and gained predominance over pops or massive popularity Dream Theatre, Tool, and the likes once had who can ascertain their roots back in 70s? Pretty rare. And the strak reality is, many new young fans are drawn to prog simply because of the publicity of JoJo's Bizarre Adventures instead of modern rock bands.
   There's another fact. I keep in contact with many rock fans. Some of them like prog but hate Keith Emerson especially. Their thinking is very simple: who the hell will be insterested in rock interpretation of classical songs that nobody actually listens to or even cares, which will take back to my aforementioned point on rock and classical music.
    But, what people must admit is that if someone delves into quintessential rocking music, rather than electrical pop sh*ts, those big names of prog are inevitable. They just stand there. Nobody can circumvent. The Beatles designed a blueprint of rock music and prog was one of the most outstanding pioneers to reinvent it. Their musicianship decides their characters: they are not postitutes to give pleasure, rather the cynical Diogenēs to push limits, explore boundaries. So, that is why when ELP started to embrace extravagance during mid 70s, their doom was inevitiable. And all classical prog bands died soon. 
   Still, new tech and interpretation of music helps to inspire kids to develop new prog of thier own. They put a completely different complexion over prog and ensure its continuity. Prog is not going to be doomed in the future. It just lives in another form we might not be familiar with.

Maybe English is not your first language but that is still a truly great post nevertheless. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AJ Junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 11:39
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:


Of course most minor bands will be forgotten but then there may be the odd exception, maybe a few hundred people worldwide who still fly the flag of, say, Zeuhl or whatever, in 2100, and be it just for taking pride of being different.


That'll be my kids one day for sure Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 05:31
"It's difficult to make predictions, especially about the future." (Niels Bohr)

I say the world is heterogeneous and will still be. Cultural unification and diversification are going on at the same time. Certain music may survive through small minorities who are interested, while the big business will go elsewhere, at it has already done for a long time.  Some of these minorities will die out, some won't (it won't help that the generations who saw prog taking off will vanish, but we can be rather optimistic about somebody carrying on the torch). The old prog rock vs. progressive discussion is also important here, but actually to some extent both sides of the coin may survive, classical 70s prog rock may continue having some small but dedicated following, and the innovative part of the younger generations will progress, but chances are they will not necessarily progress in the directions where the older generation would want them to go. Whether what comes out would still be associated in any way with "progressive rock" is anyone's guess, but that has already been a broad church in the seventies, which was and is a good thing for sure, and helpful for survival

Of course most minor bands will be forgotten but then there may be the odd exception, maybe a few hundred people worldwide who still fly the flag of, say, Zeuhl or whatever, in 2100, and be it just for taking pride of being different.

Conclusion: What do I know? 


Edited by Lewian - April 17 2024 at 05:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 04:48
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Yes, some people who who frown upon the new digital tools would be quite surprised if they knew that many of their favorite artists from the 60s/70s are embracing them. It's MUCH easier to make (as in record/mix/master) great music nowadays, and there are many more musicians doing it. This means that there are a lot of mediocre releases (since not everyone is talented), but also many awesome ones. Now we only need tools to find the hidden gems Big smile

Nice reply!  Don't forget, our "heroes" had to record quite a few "mediocre" releases before they hit paydirt with LPs like CTTE, LTIA, Foxtrot and so forth.  

Thanks to this website, I find quite a few gems, hidden or in plain sight, in music.  Some of the new prog from Scandinavia is very impressive for example!  

I wonder if the new King Crimson clone "Beat" is going to make some original music?  I wish they had selected Michael Keneally instead of Steve Vai.  I saw Keneally solo over Fripp's Soundscapes in concert, he was brilliant!!  We'll see!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 04:42
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

The future belongs to the young. 
...

Hi,

With one HUGE difference. The young tend to do their own thing, not someone else's!

You really think Stravinsky would have gotten where he did by doing some other local, and known music of the time? 

It's not, necessarily, about being young ... it's about being "stubborn" enough to do your own thing, and not give a cahoot about anything else. Weird that you STILL don't see that in the ranks of Progressive Music, specially in the late 60's and early 70's ... very few of them played covers, and just went out their own way. I kinda do not think of The Nice, or later ELP playing "covers" in fun stuff that gave them a mental break! 

The really special progressive folks NEVER played covers or anyone else's material!

Oh, I don't know....ELP's "Pictures at an Exhibition" was one long cover, yes?  

Sometimes a cover can be played progressively, like Yes' cover of "America" by Simon & Garfunkel.  That was recorded on the upswing of their progressive evolution as a band, not on the decline. 

I rarely hear young musicians playing covers, except for either practice or for kicks.   I do notice quite a bit of innovation going on, and experimentation.  

To make way for the young, the old gotta die. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote alainPP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 03:06
Hello, I come back to this major post: prog has been dead since the advent of punk, then thanks to Marillion and Twelfth Night it was reborn from its ashes to return to the beginning of grunge... In fact, it's more of a sound that has evolved over time in my opinion, a sound that means that today we can love the sounds of the 70s if we open up to those of the 2020 decade, based on metal, folk and post rock. Otherwise rock will definitely be dead (go listen to Pure Reason Revolution, Leprous and Kyros for example to understand that energy is also needed in today's prog)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 00:38
^ Yes, some people who who frown upon the new digital tools would be quite surprised if they knew that many of their favorite artists from the 60s/70s are embracing them. It's MUCH easier to make (as in record/mix/master) great music nowadays, and there are many more musicians doing it. This means that there are a lot of mediocre releases (since not everyone is talented), but also many awesome ones. Now we only need tools to find the hidden gems Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 00:18
Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

With the dawn of people being able to make prog albums literally on their phones, I think it's a safe bet to say it's secure

I resemble that remark! 

I have a Mellotron app on my iPad that is drop-dead AMAZING!!  In fact, it is the same one that Fripp & Company used onstage when I saw their "An Evening with the Elements" show at Chicago's Vic Theater!  

It is an amazing time for making music, but just making squeaky little sounds is not enough.  There has to be a modicum of talent behind it, honesty, and dedication to craft.  

The future of prog is secure.  



Edited by cstack3 - April 17 2024 at 00:20
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