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Was Pete Sinfield essential for King Crimson?

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RockHound View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RockHound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2024 at 17:28
ITCOCK as it is would not have been possible without Sinfield’s lyrics, end everything for the band flowed from there. The flow between Sinfield KC and the later material was nothing short of magical in their later tours.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2024 at 06:12
Yes. Sinfield was as essential as a lyricist to KC as Keith Reid was to Procol Harum and Betty Thatcher was to Renaissance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2024 at 09:17
Hi,

I'm a believer in the "magic" that makes things work ... and Pete helped in many ways, that helped his name as a writer, and deservedly so.

Would it be different without him? Silly question, since it happened WITH him! We've got to give credit to the resulting response ... some of the albums ended up being very well liked and enjoyed. Time to concentrate on something else other than bizarre questions?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2024 at 03:30
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

I'm a believer in the "magic" that makes things work ... and Pete helped in many ways, that helped his name as a writer, and deservedly so.

Would it be different without him? Silly question, since it happened WITH him! We've got to give credit to the resulting response ... some of the albums ended up being very well liked and enjoyed. Time to concentrate on something else other than bizarre questions?

in the still-recent ITCOTCK rockumentary, Frippy still dismisses Sinfield's "aerie-faerie" contributions. 
(there is also a brutal accusation of an original member being "the ultimate cµnt")
But then again, everything in that film is made to have us think that the final KC iteration is the best one ever.


.


Edited by Sean Trane - 30 minutes ago at 16:24
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2024 at 08:25
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

I'm a believer in the "magic" that makes things work ... and Pete helped in many ways, that helped his name as a writer, and deservedly so.

Would it be different without him? Silly question, since it happened WITH him! We've got to give credit to the resulting response ... some of the albums ended up being very well liked and enjoyed. Time to concentrate on something else other than bizarre questions?

in the still-recent ITCOTCK rockumentary, Frippy still dismisses Sinfield's "aerie-faerie" contributions. 
(there is also a brutal accusation of an original member being "the ultimate cµnt")
But then again, everything in that film is made to have us think that the final KC iteration is the best one ever. 

Hi,

I think, and RF states it, that the band was a total effort, not an individual thing, although he regrets having had issues with at least one member at the time. The thing about PS would be, more than likely, that he wasn't a musician, and why is he here? 

Again, I don't think the album would have been as good/great without all the folks that were in it ... you and I can see their abilities and work on various pieces of music, and how even the lyrics, "aerie-fairie" or "artsy" would not make the album look/appear any worse ... it made it better, despite folks that think that rock lyrics are better than poetry and that folks with poetic works don't belong in rock'n'roll, and should only put together Chuck Berry lyrics, or bubble gum crap lyrics that were so much a part of the radio in those days, BEFORE the American FM radio made that stuff obsolete!

The time for, and of, progressive music in the early days, had a lot of what we think is "aerie-fairie" or "artsy" and eventually lost its taste because those folks did not know how to maintain a true wordsmith alive ... and even folks like Bob Dylan, while a very good poet, is pretty much "anti-poetry" and "anti-art" in the sense that he won't follow any ideas ... it's all about his feel at the moment, nothing else.

Pete Sinfield, is NOT one of my "favorites" in terms of poetry, but he is a good one, and he deserves a lot more respect than the trash he is being subjected to ... even if we think it is not perfect ... it only tells you one thing ... many of those folks hate the arts, because rock music, in general is not really an art ... it's just another popular song ... and in the 21st Century ... the way the audience wants it ... regardless!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2024 at 07:52
no
“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zappastolethetowels Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2024 at 13:02
hardly essential...

he was an additional piece who contributed light shows and fantasy surreal lyrics from their foundation until 1971. 

the guy could not play anything ASAIC

Crimson was all about the music in the end so my answer is no, he was not essential 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zappastolethetowels Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2024 at 13:03
careful how we use the word "essential"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2024 at 17:04
… The rusted chains of prison moons
Are shattered by the sun
I walk a road horizons change
The tournament's begun
The purple piper plays his tune
The choir softly sing
Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
For the court of the crimson king
… The keeper of the city keys
Puts shutters on the dreams
I wait outside the pilgrim's door
With insufficient schemes
The black queen chants the funeral march
The cracked brass bells will ring
To summon back the fire witch
To the court of the crimson king
… The gardener plants an evergreen
Whilst trampling on a flower
I chase the wind of a prism ship
To taste the sweet and sour
The pattern juggler lifts his hand
The orchestra begin
As slowly turns the grinding wheel
In the court of the crimson king
… On soft grey mornings widows cry
The wise men share a joke
I run to grasp divining signs
To satisfy the hoax
The yellow jester does not play
But gently pulls the strings
And smiles as the puppets dance
In the court of the crimson king
Source: LyricFind
Songwriters: Greg Lake / Ian Mcdonald / Michael Rex Giles / Peter John Sinfield / Robert Fripp
The Court of the Crimson King lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RockHound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2024 at 18:49
I think that answers the question just fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zappastolethetowels Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2024 at 19:36
^ please don't make me write a 4 stanza poem
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2024 at 02:45
Originally posted by Zappastolethetowels Zappastolethetowels wrote:

hardly essential...

he was an additional piece who contributed light shows and fantasy surreal lyrics from their foundation until 1971. 

the guy could not play anything ASAIC

Crimson was all about the music in the end so my answer is no, he was not essential 

Not only he was toying with the VCS3 from the soundboard and worrying about the light show. I think he also chose the superb artworks for the first four album (the Crimson sleeves were never better than then, since).
We all saw what Frippy did after he kicked Sinfield out (Earthbound).


let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moyan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2024 at 08:23
Originally posted by mellotronwave mellotronwave wrote:

Peter Sinfield was also the one who had commissioned his friend (the late) Barry Godber to draw something for the KC first LP !
Barry Godber (born 1946) who was a computer programmer passed away early 1970 from a heart attack.
ITCotCK is his only cover painting (a watercolor owned now by Robert Fripp himself)
Certainly, with a different sleeve design, that record would not have been the same uncanny masterpiece.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Moyan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2024 at 08:24
Originally posted by Zappastolethetowels Zappastolethetowels wrote:

the guy could not play anything
Fantasy was the main instrument Pete Sinfield played in King Crimson. Robert Fripp played guitar, and Sinfield played fantasy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2024 at 08:32
Sinfield had a certain thematic vision for the 1st album and that had a great effect on the musicians. They wrote music around his lyrics, so yes he was essential.

Edited by SteveG - April 01 2024 at 08:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Heart of the Matter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2024 at 08:54
Another way for the same question: Would have ITCOTCK been that essential prog album, without PS? And the answer is...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve Wyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4 hours 46 minutes ago at 12:08
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Closer To Believing is my favourite GL song off that side of Works Volume One. I love the romantic imagery and use of choir. C'est La Vie was one the one that got trotted out most possibly so Emerson could play the Honher Accordian but ELP did play CTB on the massive Works tour when they still had the orchestra (eventually dropped for financial reasons). 

It's now November and I'm reviving this because I'm sure there will be a lot of discussion about Pete after the announcement of his passing. Just wanted to say that I agree with the above, and that my favorite of his KC lyrics is "Islands".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stegor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3 hours 51 minutes ago at 13:03
Pete was an ingredient. You can bake a cake without sugar but it wouldn't be very good. After Pete they stopped baking and started cooking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 1 hour 25 minutes ago at 15:29
I'd say he was essential for the early success of King Crimson, Yes.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 57 minutes ago at 15:57
I would say he was more important than essential. His weird lyrics certainly fit their often weird music. I don't think any other lyricist would have been a better fit than him and I prefer his lyrics over the somewhat pretentious lyrics of Richard Palmer James. RIP Pete.

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - 57 minutes ago at 15:57
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