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An objective review of an album you don't like?
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Originally posted by AJ Junior AJ Junior wrote:

Give your honest opinion but don't make generalizations. As the first user replied, think about what specifically you would change, and why it failed to move you. Plainly saying "This sucks" is not analytical or useful information that explains anything. At the end of the day, music is subjective and everyone has their own thoughts on different things. Happy listening Smile
You certainly don't know me and my disdain for "this sucks" reviews.
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I think that objectively defining whether an album is good or bad is such a difficult and to some extent sterile task. The evaluation of an album or an artist is so conditioned by our emotions, experiences and parental influences, friends, etc, etc. I think what we have to do is to be as honest as possible if we want to share our points of view, in such a way that we can contribute something to those who read us.

Now, what things do we review? Well, I think that in general we review genres of music that are related to us and usually identify us in some way. In my case, I don't see myself reviewing Donna Summer or Earth, Wind & Fire for example, not because their music is intrinsically bad, which I don't think it is, but because that style, which has its own rules, doesn't generate feelings that move me in any way.

When we are more or less clear about what represents us, something that can mutate at any moment, we will find that not everything is rosy, and that is also part of the rules of the game. I've mentioned before how much I love Pink Floyd's music, but it seems to me that when Waters does the redux of "Dark Side..." transforms the songs into something different that moves away from what I subjectively expect, and I feel I must share it, or when Queen, another band I love, is able to do "Prophet's Song" and a few years later does "Cool Cat" or "Staying Power", I also feel I must share it. You can be very critical, moderately critical or a mild critic, it depends on the communication style of each person, but I think it is important that, if we decide to comment on something, and that something does not meet our expectations, it is valid to express it in that sense, with our point of view supported.

And to exaggerate the point, if we see for example that a person rates all Yes albums 5 stars, what we could deduce is that he unconditionally loves the band, and we would probably take his comments as those of a fan and not very seriously.

I think that commenting on what we think is good and what we think is not so good is equally valuable.
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I'm not much of a fan of the term "objective", particularly not when it comes to music.

That said, I believe it can be a good thing in appreciating art, music, films etc. to get out of the "evaluation" mode, to get away from asking ourselves whether we like this or not, whether it is good or bad in the first place. I think it helps taking the work as a message, and as a challenge. Like when a person we care for tells us something that is important to them. We will not ask "do I like this or not", we will in the first place try to get why this is important for them, and how to relate to it.

The challenge is to find out and get what's in it. We may even play it as some kind of game with ourselves: If we, as listeners, can make this work for us, tell us something worthwhile, we have won. And note, this is our job! The listener creates their own experience. If we fail to appreciate something, there is an element of "we haven't managed to let it get to us" in it. (Not that I'm saying every work could work for everyone with enough effort, of course not. But I think often trying harder helps, if done in the right spirit at least.)

If in a review we give an account of how the communication of an album with us worked out, how we tried, how we got something to work and some other bits not, even how we could imagine it could work for others if not ourselves, not focusing on whether it's "good" or "bad" in any general way, that would make a worthwhile review, I'd think.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I'm not much of a fan of the term "objective", particularly not when it comes to music.

That said, I believe it can be a good thing in appreciating art, music, films etc. to get out of the "evaluation" mode, to get away from asking ourselves whether we like this or not, whether it is good or bad in the first place. I think it helps taking the work as a message, and as a challenge. Like when a person we care for tells us something that is important to them. We will not ask "do I like this or not", we will in the first place try to get why this is important for them, and how to relate to it.

The challenge is to find out and get what's in it. We may even play it as some kind of game with ourselves: If we, as listeners, can make this work for us, tell us something worthwhile, we have won. And note, this is our job! The listener creates their own experience. If we fail to appreciate something, there is an element of "we haven't managed to let it get to us" in it. (Not that I'm saying every work could work for everyone with enough effort, of course not. But I think often trying harder helps, if done in the right spirit at least.)

If in a review we give an account of how the communication of an album with us worked out, how we tried, how we got something to work and some other bits not, even how we could imagine it could work for others if not ourselves, not focusing on whether it's "good" or "bad" in any general way, that would make a worthwhile review, I'd think.
Perhaps objective was a poor choice of word on my part. What I meant was a review devoid of negatively as most prog music is a labor of love on the part of the artist and should be treated as such. I appreciate your views in your post.
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SteveG View Drop Down
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There's some very good posts here. I appreciate everyone's comments.

Edited by SteveG - February 10 2024 at 05:37
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Back in the 90s, I obtained Echolyn's album "Suffocating The Bloom". As an American neo prog band, I was excited to see what they were about. I was less excited after listening to it. The album had too many references to Gentle Giant's musical motifs for my taste. And I never cared for Gentle Giant, despite their originality. So, all these years later, I gave "Suffocating The Bloom" another listen hoping to write an objective review but I'm struggling. Any suggestions on writing one for this or any other album that doesn't move you?

Interesting question. Apart from the fact that "objective review" seems to be an oxymoron to me, I think I understand what your getting at. As a reader of reviews, I'm not expecting objectivity, but I'm expecting a subjective assessment that is at the same time descriptive enough so that I can get enough information for myself to guess if I might or not like an album.
Regarding your example of Echolyn's album it is not that much if you like it or not what would interest me in your review, but rather why you like or don't like it. Saying that you never cared that much for Gentle Giant and that this album is too reminiscent (to you) to this band is an information that would be valuable to me to give an impression about the music itself, and not only about your personal appreciation of it - this is definitely something that would have its place in a review.
More gerenerally I think a review should be giving enough descriptive ("objective" if you wish) information to give the reader something to relate to and "understand" your take on it: understand the particulars/qualities of the music, but also why those are or are not what speaks to you. Comparisons may help to make an argument, not objective, but subjective, but that is how readers can get information about the music beyond the I like/I don't like dichotomy.

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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Back in the 90s, I obtained Echolyn's album "Suffocating The Bloom". As an American neo prog band, I was excited to see what they were about. I was less excited after listening to it. The album had too many references to Gentle Giant's musical motifs for my taste. And I never cared for Gentle Giant, despite their originality. So, all these years later, I gave "Suffocating The Bloom" another listen hoping to write an objective review but I'm struggling. Any suggestions on writing one for this or any other album that doesn't move you?

Yeah---   write about exactly that feeling: that conundrum of not liking, listening again after years, still not liking, and what that means to you as a listener & reviewer.



Edited by Atavachron - February 11 2024 at 15:06
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Back in the 90s, I obtained Echolyn's album "Suffocating The Bloom". As an American neo prog band, I was excited to see what they were about. I was less excited after listening to it. The album had too many references to Gentle Giant's musical motifs for my taste. And I never cared for Gentle Giant, despite their originality. So, all these years later, I gave "Suffocating The Bloom" another listen hoping to write an objective review but I'm struggling. Any suggestions on writing one for this or any other album that doesn't move you?

Interesting question. Apart from the fact that "objective review" seems to be an oxymoron to me, I think I understand what your getting at. As a reader of reviews, I'm not expecting objectivity, but I'm expecting a subjective assessment that is at the same time descriptive enough so that I can get enough information for myself to guess if I might or not like an album.
Regarding your example of Echolyn's album it is not that much if you like it or not what would interest me in your review, but rather why you like or don't like it. Saying that you never cared that much for Gentle Giant and that this album is too reminiscent (to you) to this band is an information that would be valuable to me to give an impression about the music itself, and not only about your personal appreciation of it - this is definitely something that would have its place in a review.
More gerenerally I think a review should be giving enough descriptive ("objective" if you wish) information to give the reader something to relate to and "understand" your take on it: understand the particulars/qualities of the music, but also why those are or are not what speaks to you. Comparisons may help to make an argument, not objective, but subjective, but that is how readers can get information about the music beyond the I like/I don't like dichotomy.
👍 Good advice. Will do.
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SteveG View Drop Down
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I feel a review coming on. Stay tuned.

Edited by SteveG - February 11 2024 at 15:34
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Steve,
I'm looking forward to your review of that Echolyn lp.
I have similar thoughts on the band to what you posted in your original post..
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I actually do think that a negative subjective review can be valid (along the lines of what Snicolette said), but then I think it would be best to abstain from submitting a rating. I don't think that's possible at PA, but it is at AP, and I've seen that in print magazines occasionally. 
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Now on the main reviews home page. My review of "Suffocating The Bloom" by Echolyn. Comments welcome. Enjoy.

Suffocating the Bloom
Echolyn Symphonic Prog

Review by SteveG

3 stars Suffocating The Bloom is one of the most beloved 90s prog albums but I've never cottoned to that opinion. To get the elephant in the room ejected, I must state that their love of all things Gentle Giant is the biggest mark gainst them to me, never being a fan of GG and their busy multi vocal workouts. So, trying to place that aside I decided to review the album on just the first 4 songs as anymore would just be repition. Especially when it comes to the album's 20 plus minute closing suite.

The lead off track "21" is a toned down affair with gentle acoustic guitar strums and keyboard strings. It reminds me of a ballad that Kansas would do. But do much better. It's also very atypical to the rest of the songs on the album. "Winterthru" seems to be an ode to the Christmas season, if not the holiday itself. It has pleasant melodies and a very Renaissance Novella era verse and vocals. Filled with all manor of chimes and bells, it's quite busy enough but sent over the edge by the song's bombastic chorus. This is where the drumming of Paul Ramsey goes ballistic and almost over powers the music. Some restraint would have been welcome but that word doesn't seem to be in this drummer's vocabulary. This would be a trademark throughout the album. "Reaping The Harvest" starts out mellow enough but it's bombastic chorus now the feature the GG style multi lead and counter vocals. Busy enough in itself if the drummer didn't think that every faster paced chorus and instrumental break was a competition with ELP's "Karnevil 9". Even ELP knew when to lay low. Remember "Lucky Man". And that goes for the rest of this group too. The following track "In The Garden" starts off with a long synth piece that's quite boring. I'm not sure what purpose it serves the song. The song changes into a faster paced multi vocal workout over a jazzy melody and rhythm before exploding into more over played choruses and instrumental breaks. And more over playing from, you guessed it, the drummer.

Having listened to this album a few times, I could repeat the same criticisms on the rest of the songs, but that would be academic. "Suffocating The Bloom" is well recorded and well played, but an outside producer was needed to reign in a lot of the endless bombast and constant overplaying. And give the drummer a Valium.

There's nothing wrong with prog musicians taking inspiration from their heroes, be they Gentle Giant, Yes, KC or who ever, but some restraint would have resulted in Echolyn suffocating the bloom instead of suffocating the music.



Edited by SteveG - February 15 2024 at 05:52
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Seems like a quite fine and fair review. You were specific regarding the aspects you didn't like, and what changes could be made to make it fit comfortably in your musical wheelhouse. And because the music lacked any specific faults (e.g. singing out of key, amateurish compositions, playing out of synch, horrendous mixing, etc.) -- a 3 star rating was probably appropriate.

Sometimes I will give a lower fractional rating (i.e. 2-1/2 stars) in the write-up, and tell them I rounded up for some reason (e.g. it was a good effort, PA doesn't allow fractions, giving benefit of the doubt, etc). It emphasizes your overall disappointment without being too harsh on their ratings.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

...

There's nothing wrong with prog musicians taking inspiration from their heroes, be they Gentle Giant, Yes, KC or who ever, but some restraint would have resulted in Echolyn suffocating the bloom instead of suffocating the music.


Hi

I'm of the opinion that bands that "take the inspiration" from their heroes are bands that are not exactly in sync with their own abilities, and thus need to show themselves that they can do this, as a way to show that they are also capable.

I find this sad ... because one would be ignoring the very source of inspiration itself, which is within you and has nothing to do with anyone else.

That doesn't mean that many bands are not good enough, or capable, and then you can listen to Stackridge, and you know that song writing and Beatles are tops for them, and they don't sound like The Beatles at all, and in fact complement them really well even doing a song or two ... maybe even better than the original!

It's weird to me, that some folks think they have to "sound" like, or "be" like someone else in order to believe they are good enough musicians to do something. But it shows, a music scene that only teaches copy to learn, and does not know how to help folks with "creativity" other than doing something already done ... well, let me tell you ... almost all "progressive" drummers, learned nothing from Moonie, Bonzo, a few Zappa drummers ... and how to interpret music ... they all can count ... oh yeah ... beautifully ... but they don't know how to let go of their snare drum to learn how to color music and not just keep time! 

It is a disease within "progressive music", but then, I seriously doubt that many of those musicians will (eventually) make it to the pantheon of greatness, because their originality that comes from themselves, is not quite visible, and their "ideas" are more important than looking in the mirror for inspiration ... they have to look at someone else! The most they can get is some "fame" ... and in my book, they can have that ... good luck living with people telling you what to do that is not a part of your inner self!
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Good review but I don't agree with your thoughts. Paul Ramsey, IMO, is a fantastic drummer that does not need Valium, and Gentle Giant is one of the best prog acts ever and I love their "busy" multi-layered vocals. I really don't see anything you wrote that is "objective", and I'm confused that you gave it three stars when the review reads like it should be two stars.
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Good review but I don't agree with your thoughts. Paul Ramsey, IMO, is a fantastic drummer that does not need Valium, and Gentle Giant is one of the best prog acts ever and I love their "busy" multi-layered vocals. I really don't see anything you wrote that is "objective", and I'm confused that you gave it three stars when the review reads like it should be two stars.
2.5 rounded up to 3. Over playing and busy arrangements sounds objective to me, but I suppose one man's busy is another man's snoozefest. Maybe in an altered state.

Edited by SteveG - February 15 2024 at 08:39
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 
...
 2.5 rounded up to 3. Over playing and busy arrangements sounds objective to me, but I suppose one man's busy is another man's snoozefest. Maybe in an altered state.

Hi,

I do not like to criticize reviews ... the opinions are often needed and appreciated. The honesty, is the difference. It's not like you are telling everyone that they sound like "washing machine music" (given to TD one time by a total idiot!) ... and your view is fine.

FOR ME, it falls into an area that is very tough to listen to, and often gets in trouble with many listeners, and even FRank Zappa fits the bill! It's too busy, and sometimes, that "busy-ness" is not as good as it seems to be, and GG is very tough in this area as their mixes are insane, and if broken down properly, shows a knowledge of music history that is rarely found or seen anywhere. My issue with "copies" is that they do not have the history behind it, and don't know how to apply them in a way that is smoother for our ears ... I think GG did a magnificent job, and they were NOT one of the bands that I loved in the early days ... today, when I hear it, the musicianship is so far and above the majority of anything listed in the AOY stuff, that it is not funny ... but we think the numbers are more important!

All in all, for me, the best thing to do is to find a thread that does not compare it to anything, and this is the tough side of a review ... which I found in film, and learned when I saw the film "Visions of Light", although my training and studying as a director for theater and film, had me looking at more than one thing in any production, and this is the part that is hard to do with a rock band ... too many of them do not really have anything with them, beyond the "believe me" thing ... and this is the bad part of the fan side of all this, which makes your making a review very tough ... I like to say ... don't be a fan ... just be yourself!

The nice part of taking that route, is that all of a sudden, in a film, you find 5 or 10 details that help define a review ... and this is the part that is tough for me in music reviews, as the music and the words in them, are not enough ... there is something missing there ... and I call it "the soul" of the work. WHEN the whole thing is based on an "IDEA" you got to realize that it comes from someone's mind ... and you and I CAN NOT read their minds in order to make a good sense of what is being done ... and many folks rely on their idea of what it sounds like, and immediately compare it to something else since they have no words for it otherwise.

And that is the part you have to let go, to get a good review. At least one that makes sense to you!
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 
...
 2.5 rounded up to 3. Over playing and busy arrangements sounds objective to me, but I suppose one man's busy is another man's snoozefest. Maybe in an altered state.


Hi,

I do not like to criticize reviews ... the opinions are often needed and appreciated. The honesty, is the difference. It's not like you are telling everyone that they sound like "washing machine music" (given to TD one time by a total idiot!) ... and your view is fine.

FOR ME, it falls into an area that is very tough to listen to, and often gets in trouble with many listeners, and even FRank Zappa fits the bill! It's too busy, and sometimes, that "busy-ness" is not as good as it seems to be, and GG is very tough in this area as their mixes are insane, and if broken down properly, shows a knowledge of music history that is rarely found or seen anywhere. My issue with "copies" is that they do not have the history behind it, and don't know how to apply them in a way that is smoother for our ears ... I think GG did a magnificent job, and they were NOT one of the bands that I loved in the early days ... today, when I hear it, the musicianship is so far and above the majority of anything listed in the AOY stuff, that it is not funny ... but we think the numbers are more important!

All in all, for me, the best thing to do is to find a thread that does not compare it to anything, and this is the tough side of a review ... which I found in film, and learned when I saw the film "Visions of Light", although my training and studying as a director for theater and film, had me looking at more than one thing in any production, and this is the part that is hard to do with a rock band ... too many of them do not really have anything with them, beyond the "believe me" thing ... and this is the bad part of the fan side of all this, which makes your making a review very tough ... I like to say ... don't be a fan ... just be yourself!

The nice part of taking that route, is that all of a sudden, in a film, you find 5 or 10 details that help define a review ... and this is the part that is tough for me in music reviews, as the music and the words in them, are not enough ... there is something missing there ... and I call it "the soul" of the work. WHEN the whole thing is based on an "IDEA" you got to realize that it comes from someone's mind ... and you and I CAN NOT read their minds in order to make a good sense of what is being done ... and many folks rely on their idea of what it sounds like, and immediately compare it to something else since they have no words for it otherwise.

And that is the part you have to let go, to get a good review. At least one that makes sense to you!
I think that there's different objectives to a review based on either how well the artist is known or if relatively unknown. If known, there's a certain amount of descriptive short hand available. If relatively unknown then descriptions of the music become paramount. As well as comparisons. I don't think that there is a set template for any review. Theere's just too many differentiating factors involved.

Edited by SteveG - February 15 2024 at 12:04
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I have never been a Gentle Giant fanatic personally and Echolyn are more my speed musically. Great chops, I like the 'emo' vocals and strong emphasis on melody. One of the great bands that has come out of the US post 80's along with Dream Theater, Spocks Beard and more latterly the oft overlooked but brilliant Presto Ballet. It was a heavier style of symphonic prog. The review is a personal one, driven by the need not to dismiss a band that is considered important. I've never had any problem woth 'endless bombast and constant overplaying' Big smile
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Points: 17510 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2024 at 02:55
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 
...
I think that there's different objectives to a review based on either how well the artist is known or if relatively unknown. If known, there's a certain amount of descriptive short hand available. If relatively unknown then descriptions of the music become paramount. As well as comparisons. I don't think that there is a set template for any review. There's just too many differentiating factors involved.

HI,

Not necessarily. 

It doesn't matter if it is known or not ... what matters is the work itself ... again, the "known" and "unknown" idea is already based on something that you know, or see, as opposed to do NOT see. And the point in a lot of the music that became known as "progressive" was EXACTLY about what you DID NOT SEE, or EXPECT that made the music exciting and far out to our ears ... we had NEVER heard anything like it before, and to me, that is the "magic" of the review and comments.

This is one reason why I prefer a lot of new and unknown things ... nothing to compare it to, and your mind has to do some gymnastics in order to learn something new and work to find a thread in it that ticks with you ... whereas something that is "known" or done before, is just not as appealing, as a review, let alone a listen!

I think one has to separate the personal "knowing" from the stuff that you are seeing that you do not know, or understand. Otherwise, I think all you can find is the same stuff that you already know, and for me, that is the best recipe to boredom, and AoY numbers! I won't review those ever.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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