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SteveG View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 09 2024 at 06:43
Back in the 90s, I obtained Echolyn's album "Suffocating The Bloom". As an American neo prog band, I was excited to see what they were about. I was less excited after listening to it. The album had too many references to Gentle Giant's musical motifs for my taste. And I never cared for Gentle Giant, despite their originality. So, all these years later, I gave "Suffocating The Bloom" another listen hoping to write an objective review but I'm struggling. Any suggestions on writing one for this or any other album that doesn't move you?
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Imagine yourself as a producer and/or mixing engineer charged with sculpting the overall sound of this album. You listen to the first few takes and, being unhappy with it, you decide to make some changes that you think would make the album stand out. What is it you would change to make it more enjoyable to you and, presumably, others? The vocals? Are they too sappy? Too many runs? What? What about the music, the composition, the execution? How would you change it to give it more punch (or relaxation if that's what you want)? Does it lack dynamics? Is it mixed to flat? What? Is the composition too simple and trite? Too repetitive? What?

Then, knowing specifically what it is about the album that fails to move you, you should be in a position to write about that. Telling people "This album failed to move me BECAUSE..." is a fair criticism, rather than just saying "This album sucks", which everyone agrees is unfair.

So, you're the producer and the mixing engineer... What would you change to make it more enjoyable (to you)?

I did this once for the album Grimspound, by Big Big Train -- an album which failed to move me. You can read the review here: http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=1940239.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Back in the 90s, I obtained Echolyn's album "Suffocating The Bloom". As an American neo prog band, I was excited to see what they were about. I was less excited after listening to it. The album had too many references to Gentle Giant's musical motifs for my taste. And I never cared for Gentle Giant, despite their originality. So, all these years later, I gave "Suffocating The Bloom" another listen hoping to write an objective review but I'm struggling. Any suggestions on writing one for this or any other album that doesn't move you?

Hi,

In my book, a "review" is not about "like" or "not like".

It is a chance for you to look at the music with different eyes, than others. 

The main issue these days, is that too many reviews are slanted so bad, that we have lost the ability to be objective, and appreciating of someone else's creativity. Look, you may not like Picasso, or he doesn't do a thing for you, but sitting here and write a review of this or that as bad and ridiculous, will make you look very bad and in the wrong place.

In the arts, there is no right or wrong ... and you have to accept that and get off the idea of "favorites" altogether, because as a reviewer, in the end, it is ALL about the differences that make the art.

I was not, at the start, a lover of Gentle Giant at all ... it didn't click in my head, and one day, somehow, it was like ... this is neat ... and good ... and one thing you can NEVER DENY is that their musicianship was out of this world. I had a very similar reaction to Henry Cow and the family of those musicians. At first they sound way too academic for my tastes ... change this note on the staff ... there you do ... dissonance to show musically or sing!

It may not be for you, however, if you can not even find the outstanding musicianship and the clever and far out creativity in Gentle Giant, then their music is not for you and you have to go back to the simplistic 4/4 and methodology of the same thing with various formulas for 85% of all rock music out there ... maybe in that beach of sand, you will find a grain that is a different color to write about ... at which point GG would be a much more attractive decision.

There are reviews (check out those Ebert movie things) where the guys don't agree, BUT THEY TELL YOU WHY, and that makes the whole thing more objective. But, one thing ... YOU HAVE TO BE HONEST.
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Everything is subjective - musicianship, production, song crafting, etc. The only objective thing a review could state is, the time signature, the key its in, and maybe if the vocalist is pitchy.

And that Echolyn album is awesome, so maybe you should pass on a review.
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My advice would be to just abstain from rating or reviewing it if you know that you just hate everything that others appreciate the release for. Or set up a reminder to listen to it again in a year (could be a good feature at AP). 

For example, I've seen really low ratings/reviews for KGatLW's PetroDragonic Apocalypse. The release is currently #11 for 2023 at RYM, with more than 10k ratings. If you think it's mediocre, that is a sign that you're not getting what's great about it. Sure, you can go ahead and give it a low rating - it's totally fine as long as it is your honest opinion. But be aware that this will cause some raised eyebrows Wink


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - February 09 2024 at 08:00
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Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

...
So, you're the producer and the mixing engineer... What would you change to make it more enjoyable (to you)?
...

Hi,

I'm not sure any band these days, will hire a producer or a mixing engineer, as more than 75% of the stuff in albums of the year are self done at home with a DAW, that one can learn and work with.

The days of a producer, or mixing engineer, are probably down to just a few, and you see really big groups take advantage of it all in order to sound way better, and cleaner than anyone else .... and this is the stuff that is not visible in the majority of the AOY and AOM stuff that is flying around ... a lot of it is "homemade" ... a typical apple pie with too much sugar, and some cinnamon on top! Same recipe!

I think you have to look at the piece/pieces ... as people ... do you look at that girl at the beach and you name/number 10 things that make her better or worse than others? And when you realize that you are no longer making choices based on "preferences", all of a sudden the beach has many colored girls, and many different bathing suits and so on, and you ability to describe the feeling ends up all over the place ... it's all so neat and different and far out.

I have always looked at a mixing engineer or producer, not as a "DIRECTOR" as in theater and film, although that idea almost fits, but in the end, their idea is not what the band, or the work is about.

One can look at the history of the likes of George Martin, Tom Dowd, and a handful of others as making a difference, but in the end, the changes they made and the things they touched, NEVER took much away from the artist, with a couple of sad examples here and there with GM when some "hits" ended that person's career (so to speak) and they could never be like that again. But the 70's and the start of "PROGRESSIVE" was about the letting go of these extra folks and the more individualistic styles and touches that made the music special ... some might say that Eddie Offord made YES, but in the end, it was YES that made Eddie Offord.

I'm not sure that as a producer/mixer person I can make it better "for me" ... because a lot of the band might not be comfortable with the difficult music/chord changes which would make them seem better educated musically than otherwise ... I always thought ... send these mixers and producers to the Sex Pimples, and just work on "knowing" what it is you want to do to tell your story ... it's your song ... not the producers, or the mixing engineer.

Do you think PF, JT, and any of the top 5 or 6 would have made it without the ability to showcase their own work? They had the "secret" and a mixing goon, or producer doesn't ... he/she is not the band!

PS" ... I like to look at Klaus Schulze, do this live playing and realizing that he is mixing his stuff LIVE while he is playing it. And he did not exactly look for a mixing person or producer, because he had the secret ... it was all inside him, and in his fingers, the minute he touched the keyboards. HOWEVER, there is an example in one of the LIsa's DVD's that adds a wee bit more ... one small sequence that you and I will never EVER find in the music that gets changed a little bit to sound "more complete" and "concrete" instead of a meandering accidental piece or set of notes his hand might have hit at the time, and lost in the playing! It's far out, in many ways ... but so far and away from us all, it's not funny!


Edited by moshkito - February 09 2024 at 08:13
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Everything is subjective - musicianship, production, song crafting, etc. The only objective thing a review could state is, the time signature, the key its in, and maybe if the vocalist is pitchy.

And that Echolyn album is awesome, so maybe you should pass on a review.
Surely, there must be some positive attributes about the music though. Being well played, well sung, original musical motifs, not so original borowing from other prog styles that might be unique, etc. No?
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

My advice would be to just abstain from rating or reviewing it if you know that you just hate everything that others appreciate the release for. Or set up a reminder to listen to it again in a year (could be a good feature at AP). 

For example, I've seen really low ratings/reviews for KGatLW's PetroDragonic Apocalypse. The release is currently #11 for 2023 at RYM, with more than 10k ratings. If you think it's mediocre, that is a sign that you're not getting what's great about it. Sure, you can go ahead and give it a low rating - it's totally fine as long as it is your honest opinion. But be aware that this will cause some raised eyebrows Wink
I went 31 years between listens. That should be long enough to change your musical tastes. LOL

Edited by SteveG - February 09 2024 at 10:01
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

My advice would be to just abstain from rating or reviewing it if you know that you just hate everything that others appreciate the release for. Or set up a reminder to listen to it again in a year (could be a good feature at AP).
I disagree. The reason I find places such as RYM and PA more relevant or interesting than Allmusic or just about any music magazine out there, are all the potentially different views, voices, opinions and approches to the same album. It's not that I'm about to, and I tend to focus on music I love - but if I were to review an album by say... Aryeon (a band I know you like), it probably wouldn't get more than a two star from me. I suppose I "hate"* them for many of the reasons fans love them. As long as I managed to explain why, that could be useful to some. And I guess you would quickly understand that my opinion on Into the Electric Castle is something you could disregard as not relevant to what you look for in music. Someone else may think of it as a "fair warning" and "learn" that it probably won't be for them either.

Here's the opening of a two star rating of The Residents Mark of the Mole. What I love about it is pretty much what rubs Stefro (in a PA review) the wrong way. But I can understand where he's coming from, and this review is more useful to someone like Jared than my fivestar would be.

"Possibly the least accessible album by one of the least accessible groups in the history of rock music, 'Mark Of The Mole' finds avant-garde jokers The Residents in dark, dissonant and disturbing form, spinning part of epic tale (which would continue on several follow-up albums though ultimately remain unfinished) regarding two warring factions of mole-like creatures who, after an unspecified natural disaster, find themselves forced into an uneasy co-existence with predictably disastrous consequences. Filled with a freakish palette of harsh, synthesized sounds..."

-Actually it would be useful to me too, as I know I would have to check out an album like the one he's describing.

*my actual hatred is reserved for other things than music I don't care for


Edited by Saperlipopette! - February 09 2024 at 10:09
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

...
I went 31 years between listens. That should be long enough to change your musical tastes. LOL

HI,

That depends on many factors. 

IF, in between those 31 years, you heard 4654 different albums, your tastes now are very different than they were then. 

IF, in between those years you heard the same 6 bands, and the same top hits on the classical crap station, then ... your thoughts and ideas would likely not change over that time. You would be kinda stuck on one type of sound or style, and never really end up studying and learning something different, or feel anything different from any other band, or style.

On the other hand, when one floats about saying they hear 200 albums a month, I'm not sure that specific person can, in the end, make much real sense of the music, since it is very likely that the listening is not as deep and dedicated as it should in order to be able to appreciate what the band is about. 

You, either dedicate your honesty to saying something cohesive and true, or you don't. And that should be the decision to write something or not. I tend to not write reviews, of films or music that are not "attractive" to a lot of my specific interests, but that does not mean I did not like the rest of the stuff ... it was just not clear enough for me, or had anything super within it for me to be able to review it ... although I tend to not review a lot of rock music and post it here, since the appreciation is way too much "fan oriented" and many of those comments are not something that any reviewer with a history will EVER bother with! For example, I have something like 150 film reviews in the big place, and no one has ever given me crap about it ... except one, where I had to correct the ... incorrect information which was not quite right time wise!

By the time you have more than 600 reviews in foreign film, and 100 in rock music, it will be hard to not find something to review ... and if GG doesn't click for you ... so what ... write another review for something else!


Edited by moshkito - February 09 2024 at 10:40
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

My advice would be to just abstain from rating or reviewing it if you know that you just hate everything that others appreciate the release for. Or set up a reminder to listen to it again in a year (could be a good feature at AP).
I disagree. The reason I find places such as RYM and PA more relevant or interesting than Allmusic or just about any music magazine out there, are all the potentially different views, voices, opinions and approches to the same album. It's not that I'm about to, and I tend to focus on music I love - but if I were to review an album by say... Aryeon (a band I know you like), it probably wouldn't get more than a two star from me. I suppose I "hate"* them for many of the reasons fans love them. As long as I managed to explain why, that could be useful to some. And I guess you would quickly understand that my opinion on Into the Electric Castle is something you could disregard as not relevant to what you look for in music. Someone else may think of it as a "fair warning" and "learn" that it probably won't be for them either.

Here's the opening of a two star rating of The Residents Mark of the Mole. What I love about it is pretty much what rubs Stefro (in a PA review) the wrong way. But I can understand where he's coming from, and this review is more useful to someone like Jared than my fivestar would be.

"Possibly the least accessible album by one of the least accessible groups in the history of rock music, 'Mark Of The Mole' finds avant-garde jokers The Residents in dark, dissonant and disturbing form, spinning part of epic tale (which would continue on several follow-up albums though ultimately remain unfinished) regarding two warring factions of mole-like creatures who, after an unspecified natural disaster, find themselves forced into an uneasy co-existence with predictably disastrous consequences. Filled with a freakish palette of harsh, synthesized sounds..."

-Actually it would be useful to me too, as I know I would have to check out an album like the one he's describing.

*my actual hatred is reserved for other things than music I don't care for
I agree with what you're saying, but I find hate too strong a word for music you don't care for. To dislike something is not to get emotional about. I hate people who kill other people. Now, that's an emotional response.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I agree with what you're saying, but I find hate too strong a word for music you don't care for. To dislike something is not to get emotional about. I hate people who kill other people. Now, that's an emotional response.
That's why I wrote
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

*my actual hatred is reserved for other things than music I don't care for
at the end.
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The objective part comes to any facts you have related to the album/music, your interpretation is what the meat of a review is and that is subjective. I suggest going for your experience and impressions and being true to it.
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I agree with what you're saying, but I find hate too strong a word for music you don't care for. To dislike something is not to get emotional about. I hate people who kill other people. Now, that's an emotional response.
That's why I wrote
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

*my actual hatred is reserved for other things than music I don't care for
at the end.
I was not explaining your usage of the word hate, but mine.
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Quote An objective review of an album you don't like?
A review should reflect the reviewer's opinion on the product. Making it "objective" just so that the hardcore fans of the product won't mass boo the heck of the reviewer isn't the way to go IMO.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I agree with what you're saying, but I find hate too strong a word for music you don't care for. To dislike something is not to get emotional about. I hate people who kill other people. Now, that's an emotional response.
That's why I wrote
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

*my actual hatred is reserved for other things than music I don't care for
at the end.
I was not explaining your usage of the word hate, but mine.

Ok, nevermind. The reason "hate" snuck it's way into my post in the first place - although I don't hate music I don't like - was because I quoted Mike.
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Another question that arises is if we should separate the art from the artist? I'd say yes but from what I've seen 99.9% of the reviewers all around the world ain't gonna do the separation.
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I agree with what you're saying, but I find hate too strong a word for music you don't care for. To dislike something is not to get emotional about. I hate people who kill other people. Now, that's an emotional response.
That's why I wrote
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

*my actual hatred is reserved for other things than music I don't care for
at the end.
I was not explaining your usage of the word hate, but mine.

Ok, nevermind. The reason "hate" snuck it's way into my post in the first place - although I don't hate music I don't like - was because I quoted Mike.
Ok, I get what you're saying. Mike is a hater. Wink  Just kidding. But getting back to "negative" reviews, I've also listened to some music that somehow appealed to me in the reviewer's putdown. And was very happy I did! 

Edited by SteveG - February 09 2024 at 12:40
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Another question that arises is if we should separate the art from the artist? I'd say yes but from what I've seen 99.9% of the reviewers all around the world ain't gonna do the separation.
That's ironically more of an issue amongst professional music reviewers rather than the average music lover/consumer, isn't it? I'm sure I'm not alone knowing very little about the most of the artists who created the music in my collection. Sometimes when looking at the back of a cover I notice that someone is black, or that the vocalist was very pretty, or maybe I learn that someone plays a couple of instruments more than I was aware of. And more often than not, that's it. 

It would maybe be difficult not to think about the artist behind the art if I felt like writing about an album by Bill Cosby or Burzum - or I suppose a contemporary superstar such as Taylor Swift. But that's not gonna happen anyway. I'm also quite certain SteveG will manage to separate the musical content on Suffocating the Bloom from Bret Kull, Ray Weston and the rest of the band when - or if he decides to write a review of the 31 year old album in question.
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Give your honest opinion but don't make generalizations. As the first user replied, think about what specifically you would change, and why it failed to move you. Plainly saying "This sucks" is not analytical or useful information that explains anything. At the end of the day, music is subjective and everyone has their own thoughts on different things. Happy listening Smile
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