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Ivan_Melgar_M 
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 Posted: January 09 2005 at 16:33 |
Sorry Arcer, that's my work and I really know about that, giving to charity for big companies, sport stars or music bands is a bussines.
Switzerland doesn't make you avoid taxes, you pay for every concert in the country you make the concert and you pay a percentage of what you receive from the label that represents you in the country where that label is from, because the tax is charged by the country where the invcome is produced.
And Switzerland is not tax free as most people believe, taxes are cheaper than in many countries but not free.
Iván
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threefates
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 16:33 |
 arcer wrote:
giving is giving - doesn't matter if it's a tax dodge or not. At least it's a more productive tax dodge than b*****ing off to Switzerland for a 'hard, hard' year as a plutocratic tax exile.
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Oh I've got a feeling Greg Lake has given more time and money to charity than Strummer ever gave...
And Reed.. I never slept with him... he was a dick.. and I wouldn't go near any of his. 
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THIS IS ELP
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 16:38 |
Richardh wrote:
| I don't expect musicians to be great people.They only ever turn up to things like Live Aid because it improves their image and makes people think they are 'good' people.If only they could get their heads out of their own arses then maybe I would believe it. |
Agree 100% with everything you say here Richardh.
Sad but truth.
Iván
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Reed Lover
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 16:40 |
threefates wrote:
arcer wrote:
giving is giving - doesn't matter if it's a tax dodge or not. At least it's a more productive tax dodge than b*****ing off to Switzerland for a 'hard, hard' year as a plutocratic tax exile.
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Oh I've got a feeling Greg Lake has given more time and money to charity than Strummer ever gave...
And Reed.. I never slept with him... he was a dick.. and I wouldn't go near any of his.
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Never suggested you did (freudian slip lady?) but was merely saying that an association with someone does not make you an expert on them or their chosen field of excellance.She was rubbish on her back in our little plot of land, but I don't doubt her ablility in other fields.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 16:41 |
Richardh wrote:
Quote:
| I don't expect musicians to be great people.They only ever turn up to things like Live Aid because it improves their image and makes people think they are 'good' people.If only they could get their heads out of their own arses then maybe I would believe it. | | |
Agree 100% with everything you say here Richardh.
Sad but truth.
Iván
There's a lot in that, but I truly think that both Bob Geldof and Midge Ure were sincere when they put it all together - and that their positive actions have had results - which is what counts, at the end of the day.
The end justifies the means.
Edited by Certif1ed
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arcer
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 16:41 |
what am I talking about -
charity shmarity, I've always preferred my rock stars to be whacked out on ludes whilst simultaneously snorting lines from the bare bellies of nubile groupies while necking a fifth of jack
where's keith richards when you need him - the only thing he even to switzerland for a blood transfusion
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arcer
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 16:43 |
Ivan wrote ;
Switzerland doesn't make you avoid taxes, you pay for every concert in the country you make the concert and you pay a percentage of what you receive from the label that represents you in the country where that label is from, because the tax is charged by the country where the invcome is produced.
And Switzerland is not tax free as most people believe, taxes are cheaper than in many countries but not free.
but in the bad old high tax days of the mid-70s many bands chose to exile themselves to lower tax regimes in order to avoid the punitive rates in Britain. The Stones went to France, as did Floyd, seems ELP just chose to go to Switzerland. Tax dodge.
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threefates
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 16:45 |
arcer wrote:
what am I talking about -
charity shmarity, I've always preferred my rock stars to be whacked out on ludes whilst simultaneously snorting lines from the bare bellies of nubile groupies while necking a fifth of jack
Me too!
where's keith richards when you need him - the only thing he even to switzerland for a blood transfusion
Oops... sorry; Keith owns a house in Montreux... but maybe he only visits a few times a year for blood transfusions... I have no idea on that.
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THIS IS ELP
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Syzygy
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 16:55 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
Richardh wrote:
| I don't expect musicians to be great people.They only ever turn up to things like Live Aid because it improves their image and makes people think they are 'good' people.If only they could get their heads out of their own arses then maybe I would believe it. |
Agree 100% with everything you say here Richardh.
Sad but truth.
Iván
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If you were starving, would you refuse a loaf of bread came it came via Live Aid?
Of course the associated musicians were in it for publicity. Of course, the global exposure boosted sales of their back catalogues. Would things have been better if they had just ignored the famine?
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Garion81
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 17:10 |
I would think musicians come in a variety of packages ranging from good people to royal dicks. It would resemble any workforce. You could say the same about directors or chemists or plumbers. Some actually do believe that they want to help or are making a difference. It would be wrong to generalize that all are just doing it as publicity.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 19:22 |
Please guys, I'm not against charity, but as I said before I don't believe in false Gods, with a few honorable exceptions Rock artists do Charity with other purpose, they don't give a damn who is starving or anything, their producers tell them it's a good way to show a good image and also to avoid some taxes.
Of course IF the money they collect goes entirely to the ones who need it is always good, but don't believe most of the Rock Stars do it because they are so good or identified with a cause, they do it for simple and plain bussines or for free publicity.
Iván
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Garion81
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 19:42 |
Ok Ivan understood. How about this scenario;
Major band on tour int USA plays a city that when they were younger was their only date west of Chicago. Even still it was only 4 nights at a 400 seat club. 8 years later they return as a major player. They decide to play this venue again in addition to the shows already scheduled at a larger venue. They donate all proceeds from this show at the 400 seat club to the local children’s hospital. The only announcement was a radio announcement 12 hours before tickets went on sale. No pre announcement announcement or any nonsense like that, just the one. The band was in the booth selling the tickets and autographed each one. The cost of the ticket was $10. Now I ask you is this a thing their producers said to do or was it something the band wanted to for their fans and help a good cause? (Certainly $4000 even in 1980 standards was not a lot of money but I don't think that was the point.) Granted this may have been the exception not the rule but it does happen.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Lunarscape
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 19:57 |
Sorry Arcer, but The Clash was just another pop outfit produced by some lame idiots from record land. They lasted a few years and dissapeared, nobody even talks about them anymore. Reminds me a lot of The Menudos, same destiny (and same tasteless configuration). There is NO WAY you can associate culture and punk, impossible unless its conected to Trailer Park Culture (lack of - that is). Take it as it is; Punk = Junk, and its pretty silly to praise punk at a Progressive Rock forum. But ok have it your way...lets discuss how great the punk musicians were, how much time and effort they put into the trash they produced. Lets discuss how great Nirvana was and how refined their harmonic structure was and lest no forget to dissect the fabulous poetry they delivered the world.
I totally agree with the one that put punk into the poseur category, thats was what punk was about; bad attitude, screaming and yelling anti social garbage at the ones that payed their bills. So when they finally came to cash, most of them became respectable business men ( if they can, most of them failed the anger management crisis). Punk was just a fart that lasted 2-3 years just as the Lambada did, but funy enough a few nostalgic fans still hang on. Just dont forget that there is no musical value what so ever in these popular movements.
To be honest, its sad to know that you have this huge collection of prog rock and even count in Tangerine Dream albums and that all this great music havent touched you at all.
| charity shmarity, I've always preferred my rock stars to be whacked out on ludes whilst simultaneously snorting lines from the bare bellies of nubile groupies while necking a fifth of jack |
Yeah right on dude, and later taxpayers will gladly contribute to expensive rehab programs for these unfortunate fellows that had a chance and blew it ! With "ludes", and sips of "jack", snorting "powder" from the naked bellies of nublie groupies was the only thing they could do to these poor young ladies.
__________
Lunar 
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Music Is The Soul Bird That Flies In The Immense Heart Of The Listener . . .
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 20:11 |
| Major band on tour int USA plays a city that when they were younger was their only date west of Chicago. Even still it was only 4 nights at a 400 seat club. 8 years later they return as a major player. They decide to play this venue again in addition to the shows already scheduled at a larger venue. They donate all proceeds from this show at the 400 seat club to the local children’s hospital. The only announcement was a radio announcement 12 hours before tickets went on sale. No pre announcement announcement or any nonsense like that, just the one. The band was in the booth selling the tickets and autographed each one. The cost of the ticket was $10. Now I ask you is this a thing their producers said to do or was it something the band wanted to for their fans and help a good cause? (Certainly $4000 even in 1980 standards was not a lot of money but I don't think that was the point.) Granted this may have been the exception not the rule but it does happen. |
Maybe I'm too cynicall or worked as a lawyer too much time, but I have some questions:
1.- Did they repeated this gesture when they had an auditorium of 10, 20 or 40 thousand souls?
2.- Didn't they had a chance to approach direct to a new fan base?
3.- Did they deduced this US$ 4,000 from tax?
4.- Did the newspapers wrote something about this gesture the next day?
Maybe they are the exception and they are very nice people as Bob Geldof.
Iván
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Garion81
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 20:20 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
| Major band on tour int USA plays a city that when they were younger was their only date west of Chicago. Even still it was only 4 nights at a 400 seat club. 8 years later they return as a major player. They decide to play this venue again in addition to the shows already scheduled at a larger venue. They donate all proceeds from this show at the 400 seat club to the local children’s hospital. The only announcement was a radio announcement 12 hours before tickets went on sale. No pre announcement announcement or any nonsense like that, just the one. The band was in the booth selling the tickets and autographed each one. The cost of the ticket was $10. Now I ask you is this a thing their producers said to do or was it something the band wanted to for their fans and help a good cause? (Certainly $4000 even in 1980 standards was not a lot of money but I don't think that was the point.) Granted this may have been the exception not the rule but it does happen. |
Maybe I'm too cynicall or worked as a lawyer too much time, but I have some questions:
1.- Did they repeated this gesture when they had an auditorium of 10, 20 or 40 thousand souls?
No of course not.
2.- Didn't they had a chance to approach direct to a new fan base?
Not sure what you mean Ivan.
3.- Did they deduced this US$ 4,000 from tax?
I don't work for them so I don't know. They didn't really earn that $4000 That would have been the draw from the tickets which was donated by the Club owner. I am sure The Band could donate the amount of the fee they charged for any concert.
4.- Did the newspapers wrote something about this gesture the next day?
Absolutely nothing was written about this show anywhere. Although the dates they were already set to play were.
Maybe they are the exception and they are very nice people as Bob Geldof.
Iván
The band was Genesis and it was the 1980 Duke tour. They played the world famous Roxy in Hollywood on Sunset. They played their full set and added The Musical Box and played The Knife as thier encore.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 20:39 |
Ok Phil Collins, Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks who had already earned several millions donated US$ 4,000.00 (At the most) to the Children's Hospital, don't you believe it's ridiculous? I'm sure they didn't cared for the money they would get the 4 nights in that small club, it was nothing for them.
Of course the hospital will make use of that huge amount of money, but I would believe in them if they did that in a big concert.
I'm absolutely sure they didn't deducted that amount from taxes because it meaned nothing for them, the tour in a small club was only a way of advertising without having to pay a cent. I'm sure theydidn't expected to earn a cent for the whole 4 nights, it's a way of advertizing, nothing more.
Only remember that in 1980, Genesis had a big problem with their fans, they even were insulted in major concerts by old fans, so this may be the way to approach to their new fan base giving three or four hours of their time.
For God's sake, I'm becoming a very bitter guy.
Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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Pixel Pirate
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 20:47 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
For God's sake, I'm becoming a very bitter guy.
Iván
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Welcome to reality.
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Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
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Garion81
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 21:06 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
Ok Phil Collins, Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks who had already earned several millions donated US$ 4,000.00 (At the most) to the Children's Hospital, don't you believe it's ridiculous? I'm sure they didn't cared for the money they would get the 4 nights in that small club, it was nothing for them.
All true Ivan however they earned several millions for probably the first time in their lives that year. Even if it was only $4000 they earned nothing for the show. They played for free. As for the ticket price it was set by the club owner. This guy was so jaded that he came around to the people sleeping in his parking lot first for tickets the next day and then again when they came back two nights later to line up for seats handing out out coffee. He also sat down and spent time talking with the fans. It was very special. The band, although playing that night were in the the ticket booth the entire three hours it took greeting each and every person every ticket autographed. Oh yeah forgot to metion it was one ticket per person no scalpers.
Of course the hospital will make use of that huge amount of money, but I would believe in them if they did that in a big concert.
I'm absolutely sure they didn't deducted that amount from taxes because it meaned nothing for them, the tour in a small club was only a way of advertising without having to pay a cent. I'm sure theydidn't expected to earn a cent for the whole 4 nights, it's a way of advertizing, nothing more.
One radio announcement with no follow up press is hardly advertsiing Ivan.
Only remember that in 1980, Genesis had a big problem with their fans, they even were insulted in major concerts by old fans, so this may be the way to approach to their new fan base giving three or four hours of their time.
Well if that was their design they failed because everyone of the 440 people who bought tickets that day were die hard old band fans. Since they added The Musical Box and The Knife to the set (I saw them at the big arena the night before and they did not play them) I don't think they were trying to draw new fans by playing those songs.
For God's sake, I'm becoming a very bitter guy.
Iván
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Yes you are Ivan. OK This is my spin of the whole event. The club owner who remained friends with the band approached them about doing this. It was nostalgia. It was for the old fans and they did it for free. Childrens hospital was secondary. You didn't even know that the money was being donated unless you looked on the ticket. No other mention of this show ever happened in any media. Hell, they had no light show no fog machine no nothing. BTW this was one show the 4 night thing happend in 1972 with Peter Gabriel. Ivan I don't think their was really anything sinster happening that night. 
Edited by Garion81
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 22:08 |
| Well if that was their design they failed because everyone of the 440 people who bought tickets that day were die hard old band fans. |
Then they tried to recover some old fans.
I'm not trying to be cynical, but if you know about that night, many other people knows about it, as you well said "It was for the old fans and they did it for free. Children hospital was secondary".
They played for free not for the hospital, they played for free for their fans, because 2 or 3 thousand bucks mened absolutely nothing for them in that moment, that's the way they used to tell old fans you see, we're not the bad guys you believe, we will give you what you want and for free.
Sorry if I'm skeptical, but you should also remember that the band in a "great gesture" with Peter Gabriel in 1982, played to help him because he had broke promoting African music with WOMAD.
Everything seems nice, but the band refused to use the name Genesis, because they were afraid that Peter Gabriel will try to go back with the band, that concert was called "Six of the Best", and they didn't invited Steve Hackett, who joined them almost at the end of the concert because he was there.
Phil Collins never did anything without studying all the posibilities, so forgive me but I don't believe the show was for free, I'm sure they gained much more with it than what they gave to the Children Hospital.
Iván
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Garion81
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Posted: January 09 2005 at 22:25 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
| Well if that was their design they failed because everyone of the 440 people who bought tickets that day were die hard old band fans. |
Then they tried to recover some old fans.
Well they didn't need them since they sold out a 15,000 seat arena the night before.
I'm not trying to be cynical, but if you know about that night, many other people knows about it, as you well said "It was for the old fans and they did it for free. Children hospital was secondary".
I knew about it because I went. My friend called me at 1 am and said they just announced Genesis is playing the Roxy do you want to try and get tickets. I said yes gathered up my prgenant wife and headed off. As for the price of the ticket i am sure they could have charged $50 instead of $10 and still got it. I payed $22.50 for the show at the 15,000 seat arena and sat about half way back.
They played for free not for the hospital, they played for free for their fans, because 2 or 3 thousand bucks mened absolutely nothing for them in that moment, that's the way they used to tell old fans you see, we're not the bad guys you believe, we will give you what you want and for free.
I thinkthe club owner aranged the Childrens Hospital. Not the band. they probably didn't even know it existed.
Sorry if I'm skeptical, but you should also remember that the band in a "great gesture" with Peter Gabriel in 1982, played to help him because he had broke promoting African music with WOMAD.
Everything seems nice, but the band refused to use the name Genesis, because they were afraid that Peter Gabriel will try to go back with the band, that concert was called "Six of the Best", and they didn't invited Steve Hackett, who joined them almost at the end of the concert because he was there.
Yes they all said it was disasster. When Peter Gabriel answers reunion questions he always points to this show as a good reason not too. I think some bands would tell fomer members in similar situation to go f themselves. So give them credit that they at least went through with it. Look these guys are in buisness and bands that big are corporations. It is much bigger than the artists themselves. Peoples jobs are at stake. As for Steve Hackett well they let him up on stage didn't they? Ivan you would feel the same way if you worked for any large money making corporation.
, so forgive me but I don't believe the show was for free, I'm sure they gained much more with it than what they gave to the Children Hospital.
Iván
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maybe they did but so what? It was a great show in an intimate setting with a bunch of old fans. When they played The Knife The place went crazy. That was worth every penny.
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