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Does prog have to be complex to be prog?
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Poll Question: In your opinion does prog have to be complex to be prog?
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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^ Not an expert on the Beach Boys at all, but on AP they are tagged as progressive in 1967 because for Smiley Smile on RYM the "Progressive Pop" tag was taken as a seed. For their most iconic release as far as progressiveness is concerned (Pet Sounds), several AP users have tagged it as non-prog.
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^^ Those albums are prog, but just barely.   It's not a criticism, just an observation.   In fact The Nice used to be considered proto-prog around these parts until a few of us pointed out that in hindsight, those LPs were mostly prog rock.





Edited by Atavachron - January 21 2024 at 15:41
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:


Who do you consider to be prog-adjacent?

Not who (artist), but what (release or track). I don't think it makes sense to assign this on the artist level.

Don't remember, and TBH it's not that important to me. Whenever I listen to a release these days, I'll assign one of the three levels (non-prog, prog-adjacent, prog) intuitively, giving not a lot of thought to fixed rules and regulations. These labels should IMHO not be categories we shoehorn releases or tracks into, but just ways to tag the releases to enable listeners to more easily find interesting music. So read these as:

- Non-prog: "I think that most people would agree this is not prog"
- Prog-adjacent: "I think this is sort of in-between non-prog and prog, so if you expect this to tickle your prog sensors, proceed with caution since your mileage may vary"
- Prog: "This seems like prog to me. It may not to you, FWIW"

In any case, you can take a look at the top releases tagged as prog-adjacent at AP: http://localhost:4200/chart?prog=related

I was just wondering what some examples of prog-adjacent were. None off the top of your head? I wouldn't ask if the link worked but alas it doesn't.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 21 2024 at 15:39
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Trespass was young prog (symph), but still more complex than much that same year (like Emerson,Lake &Palmer).   It was legit, just underdeveloped
By the same token the only thing that's really complex on ITCOTCK is 21st century schizoid man. 
Well yeah that's kinda right.   Why, does that bother you ?
No, I'm not the one who thinks music has to be complex to be prog. [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink[/IMG

But the In the Court represented just the first glimmers of intentional, deliberate prog/art rock and frankly wasn't much farther from Giles,Giles,& Fripp.   The first two Nice albums are just as significant and are about as prog as the first Crimson album, which is to say not quite there yet but definitely on to something more than the Psych of the day.

It was a gradual evolution that started with the Beach Boys and grew exponentially.   Were the Beach Boys progressive rock?   They sure were, but try flying that around here.



Well then if the Nice aren't quite full blown prog (in your opinion) then why is Court considered to be that? 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 21 2024 at 15:36
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Trespass was young prog (symph), but still more complex than much that same year (like Emerson,Lake &Palmer).   It was legit, just underdeveloped
By the same token the only thing that's really complex on ITCOTCK is 21st century schizoid man. 
Well yeah that's kinda right.   Why, does that bother you ?
No, I'm not the one who thinks music has to be complex to be prog. [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink[/IMG

But the In the Court represented just the first glimmers of intentional, deliberate prog/art rock and frankly wasn't much farther from Giles,Giles,& Fripp.   The first two Nice albums are just as significant and are about as prog as the first Crimson album, which is to say not quite there yet but definitely on to something more than the Psych of the day.

It was a gradual evolution that started with the Beach Boys and grew exponentially.   Were the Beach Boys progressive rock?   They sure were, but try flying that around here.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:


Who do you consider to be prog-adjacent?

Not who (artist), but what (release or track). I don't think it makes sense to assign this on the artist level.

Don't remember, and TBH it's not that important to me. Whenever I listen to a release these days, I'll assign one of the three levels (non-prog, prog-adjacent, prog) intuitively, giving not a lot of thought to fixed rules and regulations. These labels should IMHO not be categories we shoehorn releases or tracks into, but just ways to tag the releases to enable listeners to more easily find interesting music. So read these as:

- Non-prog: "I think that most people would agree this is not prog"
- Prog-adjacent: "I think this is sort of in-between non-prog and prog, so if you expect this to tickle your prog sensors, proceed with caution since your mileage may vary"
- Prog: "This seems like prog to me. It may not to you, FWIW"

In any case, you can take a look at the top releases tagged as prog-adjacent at AP:


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - January 22 2024 at 01:08
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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ It's worse: There is "prog" as a style and "progressive" as a general quality of the music. Both are impossible to define, let alone trying to put them in any meaningful relation:

"Progressive": There's really many ways to be that as a musician. Doesn't really work to boil it down to song structures or time signatures, that's way too simplistic.

"Prog": Take ITCOTCK, SEBTP and CTTE as three iconic releases of Prog Rock. Good luck defining the genre in terms of style, it's all over the place. 

This is why on AwesomeProg, after a lot of feedback over the years, I've simplified the disctinction down to three simple categories:

- Non-Prog
- Prog-Adjacent
- Prog

What those mean and where the boundaries are vary greatly from person to person, and maybe this is the best we can do Smile

Who do you consider to be prog-adjacent?


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 21 2024 at 15:14
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

^Do you categorize by song or by artist … because many “Prog” artists dabble in both Prog and standard forms.

Mainly by release, but it's also possible on the track level. 
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Trespass was young prog (symph), but still more complex than much that same year (like Emerson,Lake &Palmer).   It was legit, just underdeveloped
By the same token the only thing that's really complex on ITCOTCK is 21st century schizoid man. 

Well yeah that's kinda right.   Why, does that bother you ?




No, I'm not the one who thinks music has to be complex to be prog. Wink
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^Do you categorize by song or by artist … because many “Prog” artists dabble in both Prog and standard forms.

Edited by Jaketejas - January 21 2024 at 14:41
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^ It's worse: There is "prog" as a style and "progressive" as a general quality of the music. Both are impossible to define, let alone trying to put them in any meaningful relation:

"Progressive": There's really many ways to be that as a musician. Doesn't really work to boil it down to song structures or time signatures, that's way too simplistic.

"Prog": Take ITCOTCK, SEBTP and CTTE as three iconic releases of Prog Rock. Good luck defining the genre in terms of style, it's all over the place. 

This is why on AwesomeProg, after a lot of feedback over the years, I've simplified the disctinction down to three simple categories:

- Non-Prog
- Prog-Adjacent
- Prog

What those mean and where the boundaries are vary greatly from person to person, and maybe this is the best we can do Smile


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - January 21 2024 at 14:11
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What is complex to one person may be simple to another. I suppose that the person or people making the music should either be fording some musical river, whether that be personal or in the context of the genre, or perhaps is creative in some way or interesting but maybe not conforming to well defined rules for specific styles. I think I’m going off on a tangent. Trying to define Prog is like trying to pin jello to the wall.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Trespass was young prog (symph), but still more complex than much that same year (like Emerson,Lake &Palmer).   It was legit, just underdeveloped
By the same token the only thing that's really complex on ITCOTCK is 21st century schizoid man. 

Well yeah that's kinda right.   Why, does that bother you ?
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Put me in the don't care camp. I just listen to music and generally dislike experimental music and like my music to have melody. I spent a good chunk of yesterday listening to Genesis and Big Big Train. Trespass has very little complexity so presumably it's not a prog album. I love the idea that BBT may not be complex enough to be a prog band. That's hilarious. Only on a prog forum. Tongue

I consider them to be prog. I just said that not all of their music is complex. Do you even pay attention to what people say on here? That's like me saying I love the idea that someone thinks Trespass isn't complex enough to be prog. And obviously you do care otherwise you wouldn't be analyzing this as much as everyone else on here. Tongue

you said a lot of their music is just songs and not complex. You didn't say not all of their music is complex. Very different statements imo. 
a lot = 80% I guess or did you mean a lot to equal 30%?

Even if a lot of their music isn't complex what does it matter if we both agree that complex doesn't equal prog which seems to be the case. To be honest I haven't heard all of their material. I've heard Folklore up to Welcome to the Planet (I have Underfall Yard but haven't gotten around to listening to it yet). Sure there are longer tracks and maybe a few epics in there but they seem to have quite a bit of more song oriented material which is sort of my point. It's the same thing with Echolyn who are also considered prog. Listen to them too. Some long stuff but also quite a bit of more song oriented stuff. 3rdegree is also rather song oriented but still considered prog and rightly so. Again imo song oriented or not complex does not equal not prog. It's what they do with those songs. 
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^That is about where I am at now. I will let other people label something is progressive or not. I will just decide whether I like it or not.
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I'm not sure I really know what 'progressive' means. It all feels a bit biblical with Robert Fripp as the good lord who saw over everything and made it better (or maybe Zappa or Emerson or Fripp knows who) Wink
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Trespass was young prog (symph), but still more complex than much that same year (like Emerson,Lake &Palmer).   It was legit, just underdeveloped.   


Hi,

TRESPASS should never be listed as "progressive", as Anthony Phillips in his huge listing of work, has never been "progressive" and I would suggest he was ore into the composition element of things along with a really nice almost experimental side for the use of keyboards, for which at least a couple of albums have stood out beautifully. Symphonic, I would agree to ... but Progressive, no.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Put me in the don't care camp. I just listen to music and generally dislike experimental music and like my music to have melody. I spent a good chunk of yesterday listening to Genesis and Big Big Train. Trespass has very little complexity so presumably it's not a prog album. I love the idea that BBT may not be complex enough to be a prog band. That's hilarious. Only on a prog forum. Tongue

I consider them to be prog. I just said that not all of their music is complex. Do you even pay attention to what people say on here? That's like me saying I love the idea that someone thinks Trespass isn't complex enough to be prog. And obviously you do care otherwise you wouldn't be analyzing this as much as everyone else on here. Tongue

you said a lot of their music is just songs and not complex. You didn't say not all of their music is complex. Very different statements imo. 
a lot = 80% I guess or did you mean a lot to equal 30%?
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Trespass was young prog (symph), but still more complex than much that same year (like Emerson,Lake &Palmer).   It was legit, just underdeveloped.   


By the same token the only thing that's really complex on ITCOTCK is 21st century schizoid man. 
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Put me in the don't care camp. I just listen to music and generally dislike experimental music and like my music to have melody. I spent a good chunk of yesterday listening to Genesis and Big Big Train. Trespass has very little complexity so presumably it's not a prog album. I love the idea that BBT may not be complex enough to be a prog band. That's hilarious. Only on a prog forum. Tongue

I consider them to be prog. I just said that not all of their music is complex. Do you even pay attention to what people say on here? That's like me saying I love the idea that someone thinks Trespass isn't complex enough to be prog. And obviously you do care otherwise you wouldn't be analyzing this as much as everyone else on here. Tongue


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 21 2024 at 09:28
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