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Does prog have to be complex to be prog? |
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AFlowerKingCrimson ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18874 |
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By complex I mean super virtuosic with crazy time signatures etc. I thought of adding more options but decided to keep it simple (simple for me anyway).
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65587 |
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Yes, it does.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Online Points: 45581 |
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No
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Heart of the Matter ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 01 2020 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 3538 |
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Surely no, many progressive classics are just songs.
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21554 |
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No. Post-Rock would be a typical example where most of the iconic releases are neither virtuosic nor feature many time-signature changes.
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Grumpyprogfan ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 09 2019 Location: Kansas City Status: Offline Points: 12368 |
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Nah. It shouldn't follow the radio friendly verse, chorus, repeat, and throw in a bridge format.
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AFlowerKingCrimson ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18874 |
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I agree. I can't think of "wonderous stories" or "I know what I like" as anything but prog and they aren't complex. I'm sure there are tons of other examples too. I started this poll because I seem to keep hearing (mostly online) people say prog has to be complicated with odd time sigs to be prog. If that's the case then a lot of neo, prog folk, psych prog, post rock etc. aren't prog. A lot of stuff by Big Big Train is mostly just songs and not complex. If they aren't prog then what are they?
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 18 2024 at 14:31 |
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65587 |
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Bad prog. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21554 |
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21554 |
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You're both wrong. Neither is most of the highly rated Big Big Train "stuff" "mostly just songs and not complex", nor are they bad, from an objective standpoint (judging the quality of the compositions, the musicianship and so on). But you don't have to like them
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AFlowerKingCrimson ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18874 |
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So complex equals good. Gotcha.
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AFlowerKingCrimson ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18874 |
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Did you listen to their last album Welcome to the Planet? The first half is regular songs and not very complicated. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't fit the description of what a lot of purists might consider "true prog." A bunch of other stuff that I've heard by them is also song oriented and not very complex.
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AFlowerKingCrimson ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18874 |
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65587 |
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Then those songs aren't progressive rock. It's not an insult, just musical analysis. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65587 |
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This is pop music. Good & clever, but pop. Again, not an insult. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Hrychu ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5667 |
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yes and no, depends on the type and your definition of complexity
Edited by Hrychu - January 18 2024 at 14:55 |
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21554 |
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I disagree. "Song-oriented"? Sure, but most of that are epic songs with many parts and quirks that go beyond typical song structures. Add to that the big instrumentation with flutes and violins, and everything is masterfully composed together in a truly symphonic way, just as Yes and Genesis did way back when. IMHO Big Big Train have been and still are doing a great job of keeping the true spirit of prog alive. Case in point: |
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Hrychu ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5667 |
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here's an example:
Itoiz - Ezekiel I don't wanna repeat myself so I'm gonna quote an old PA post I made
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On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.
Ernest Vong |
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AFlowerKingCrimson ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18874 |
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So for you it's all about the song structure. Verse, chorus song structure can't by definition be "prog." Is that it? What if there was a five minute instrumental section with a synth solo and or mellotron? I've heard stuff that was very simple sounding but had keyboad solos and a keyboard sound called prog probably because of the keys. Take the keys out and it's rock or maybe jam band or something else.
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 18 2024 at 15:10 |
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Grumpyprogfan ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 09 2019 Location: Kansas City Status: Offline Points: 12368 |
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Here is a non-complex prog song.
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