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Does prog have to be complex to be prog?

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Poll Question: In your opinion does prog have to be complex to be prog?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
5 [11.11%]
37 [82.22%]
2 [4.44%]
1 [2.22%]
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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Does prog have to be complex to be prog?
    Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:08
By complex I mean super virtuosic with crazy time signatures etc. I thought of adding more options but decided to keep it simple (simple for me anyway).
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:14
Yes, it does.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Cristi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:15
No
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Heart of the Matter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heart of the Matter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:23
Surely no, many progressive classics are just songs.
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:26
No. Post-Rock would be a typical example where most of the iconic releases are neither virtuosic nor feature many time-signature changes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:27
Nah. It shouldn't follow the radio friendly verse, chorus, repeat, and throw in a bridge format.
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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:30
Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

Surely no, many progressive classics are just songs.

I agree. I can't think of "wonderous stories" or "I know what I like" as anything but prog and they aren't complex. I'm sure there are tons of other examples too.

I started this poll because I seem to keep hearing (mostly online) people say prog has to be complicated with odd time sigs to be prog. If that's the case then a lot of neo, prog folk, psych prog, post rock etc. aren't prog. A lot of stuff by Big Big Train is mostly just songs and not complex. If they aren't prog then what are they?


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 18 2024 at 14:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:34
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

Surely no, many progressive classics are just songs.
I agree. I can't think of "wonderous stories" or "I know what I like" as anything but prog and they aren't complex. I'm sure there are tons of other examples too.
I started this poll because I seem to keep hearing (mostly online) people say prog has to be complicated with odd time sigs to be prog. If that's the case then a lot of neo, prog folk, psych prog, post rock etc. aren't prog. A lot of stuff by Big Big Train is mostly just songs and not complex. If they aren't prog then what are they?

Bad prog.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:39
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Nah. It shouldn't follow the radio friendly verse, chorus, repeat, and throw in a bridge format.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:41
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

  A lot of stuff by Big Big Train is mostly just songs and not complex. If they aren't prog then what are they?

Bad prog.

You're both wrong. Neither is most of the highly rated Big Big Train "stuff" "mostly just songs and not complex", nor are they bad, from an objective standpoint (judging the quality of the compositions, the musicianship and so on).

But you don't have to like them Smile
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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:42
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

Surely no, many progressive classics are just songs.
I agree. I can't think of "wonderous stories" or "I know what I like" as anything but prog and they aren't complex. I'm sure there are tons of other examples too.
I started this poll because I seem to keep hearing (mostly online) people say prog has to be complicated with odd time sigs to be prog. If that's the case then a lot of neo, prog folk, psych prog, post rock etc. aren't prog. A lot of stuff by Big Big Train is mostly just songs and not complex. If they aren't prog then what are they?

Bad prog.

So complex equals good. Gotcha. Wink
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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:45
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

  A lot of stuff by Big Big Train is mostly just songs and not complex. If they aren't prog then what are they?

Bad prog.

You're both wrong. Neither is most of the highly rated Big Big Train "stuff" "mostly just songs and not complex", nor are they bad, from an objective standpoint (judging the quality of the compositions, the musicianship and so on).

But you don't have to like them Smile

Did you listen to their last album Welcome to the Planet? The first half is regular songs and not very complicated. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't fit the description of what a lot of purists might consider "true prog." A bunch of other stuff that I've heard by them is also song oriented and not very complex. 
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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:49



According to the purists they would be right here. They wouldn't consider this song to be prog at all.


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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:51
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Did you listen to their last album Welcome to the Planet? The first half is regular songs and not very complicated. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't fit the description of what a lot of purists might consider "true prog." A bunch of other stuff that I've heard by them is also song oriented and not very complex. 

Then those songs aren't progressive rock.   It's not an insult, just musical analysis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:53
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:




According to the purists they would be right here. They wouldn't consider this song to be prog at all.





This is pop music. Good & clever, but pop. Again, not an insult.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Hrychu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:54
yes and no, depends on the type and your definition of complexity
Quote By complex I mean super virtuosic with crazy time signatures etc.
No.

Edited by Hrychu - January 18 2024 at 14:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 14:58
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Did you listen to their last album Welcome to the Planet? The first half is regular songs and not very complicated. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't fit the description of what a lot of purists might consider "true prog." A bunch of other stuff that I've heard by them is also song oriented and not very complex. 

I disagree. "Song-oriented"? Sure, but most of that are epic songs with many parts and quirks that go beyond typical song structures. Add to that the big instrumentation with flutes and violins, and everything is masterfully composed together in a truly symphonic way, just as Yes and Genesis did way back when. IMHO Big Big Train have been and still are doing a great job of keeping the true spirit of prog alive.

Case in point:

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Hrychu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 15:02
here's an example:
Itoiz - Ezekiel

I don't wanna repeat myself so I'm gonna quote an old PA post I made
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

What a truly modest and honest prog album. No flashy noodling, no side long tracks, no crazy moog solos or complex time signature changes, yet it's such a powerful record!
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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 15:08
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:




According to the purists they would be right here. They wouldn't consider this song to be prog at all.





This is pop music. Good & clever, but pop. Again, not an insult.


So for you it's all about the song structure. Verse, chorus song structure can't by definition be "prog." Is that it? What if there was a five minute instrumental section with a synth solo and or mellotron? I've heard stuff that was very simple sounding but had keyboad solos and a keyboard sound called prog probably because of the keys. Take the keys out and it's rock or maybe jam band or something else. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 18 2024 at 15:10
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 15:09
Here is a non-complex prog song.

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