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Never Mind the Bollocks.....
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Cristi View Drop Down
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

I can respect, in retrospect, the rebellious nature of punk, ....
That's good because I certainly won't say that the rebellious nature of Metal as a whole is of a better kind than the one of Punk.
Depends on the band, on the subgenre. Plenty of metal is rebellious in a good way, many bands have great lyrics, from life's struggle to societal and political issues. So you are generalizing here. 

More correctly, I wasn't really generalizing, just compared the two genres as a whole, and it would be good if you had distinguished between the British and the American Punk, as there was a big difference in their character.

Why bring metal into this conversation? Is it just to pick a fight because you have not found your guy... 
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Anyway, when talking about the rebellious nature in Sex Pistols' milestone of a Rock album:



Edited by David_D - December 12 2023 at 03:24
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I think the Punk v Prog partly came from the Pistols appearing on TV and one of them (Rotten?) was wearing a 'I Hate Pink Floyd' T-shirt.

It was very probably Rotten, as he was fond of a self-made T-shirt like that. On the other hand, one of his influences was Peter Hammill.




Edited by David_D - December 12 2023 at 03:23
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I think the Punk v Prog partly came from the Pistols appearing on TV and one of them (Rotten?) was wearing a 'I Hate Pink Floyd' T-shirt.

It was very probably Rotten, as he was fond of a self-made T-shirt like that. On the other hand, one of his influences was Peter Hammill.
and Can, Captain Beefheart, Kraftwerk, Henry Cow...
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From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_Pistols
Quote
McLaren, Rhodes and the band began looking locally for a new member to assume the lead vocal duties. As described by Matlock, "Everyone had long hair then, even the milkman, so what we used to do was if someone had short hair we would stop them in the street and ask them if they fancied themselves as a singer. (...)  In August 1975, Rhodes spotted Lydon, then nineteen-year-old, wearing a Pink Floyd T-shirt with the words I Hate handwritten above the band's name and holes scratched through the Floyd members' eyes. Soon after, either Rhodes or McLaren asked Lydon to audition. During the session, Lydon improvised to Alice Cooper's "I'm Eighteen" on the Sex's jukebox. According to Jones, "he came in with green hair. I thought he had a really interesting face. I liked his look. He had the 'I Hate Pink Floyd' T-shirt on...held together with safety pins... he was a real arsehole—but smart."
So the "I hate Pink Floyd" T-shirt was a key qualification.
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My favourite Pistols track was Silly Thing, released after Lydon and Vicious had gone, which was more of a catchy hard rock song than punk. The Stranglers were the only "punk" band I really got into and bought albums by. Prog music was new to me at the time even though the bands had been around for a long time, and I found it exciting and interesting.

Being 15 in the summer of 1977 punk should have been "my music" but it didn't speak to me at all really. There was certainly plenty of energy and aggression but I thought it was musically not very interesting, nihilistic and aesthetically ugly. I wanted to be Keith Emerson or Jimmy Page, not the spotty green-haired herbert Johnny Rotten! Most of the prog musicians were pushing or past 30 by 1977 and a new generation had come along so it was time for one of the periodic resets. The punks couldn't say they were better musicians than the old guard so their USP was that they were more relevant and "street".

I always found it ironic that punk came along when there was an old school Labour left-wing government in power in the UK. If they'd left it a few more years they might have struggled to form bands as Maggie Thatcher would have had them on job creation schemes! In some ways I think punk was a precursor of Thatcherism with both attempting to blow away what was perceived as a dusty decaying old Britain, one from a youth/musical standpoint and the other in terms of politics and economics.

Punk died a fairly rapid death and morphed into new wave which was more arty and musically adventurous. I remember seeing Magazine on the Old Grey Whistle Test and thinking they sounded like a prog band under heavy sedation.


Edited by Cactus Choir - December 12 2023 at 04:33
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Originally posted by Cactus Choir Cactus Choir wrote:

.....not the spotty green-haired herbert Johnny Rotten!
Never mind the bullocks, it's anarchy in the dairy farm... Who would've guessed the spotty green-haired herbert would end up selling Country Life butter to spread the cost of living, presumably because he kneaded the bread. It can't be good for his Public Image though. Tongue



Edited by Psychedelic Paul - December 12 2023 at 04:48
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Cactus Choir Cactus Choir wrote:

.....not the spotty green-haired herbert Johnny Rotten!
Anarchy in the dairy farm... Who would've guessed the spotty green-haired herbert would end up selling Country Life butter to spread the cost of living, presumably because he kneaded the bread. It can't be good for his Public Image though. Tongue


Smile It's also interesting that in later life John Lydon and Keith Emerson ended up as near-neighbours in California and apparently got on pretty well!
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

So the "I hate Pink Floyd" T-shirt was a key qualification.

I wouldn't necessarily interpret the quoted in that way, but rejection of the well-established Rock bands was definitely one of the main characteristics of the British Punk Rock movement.
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Punk did not die after three years, au contraire it simply splintered off into myriad sub-genres ranging from post-punk and new wave to art punk, Gothic rock and yes even progressive punk! Both punk and prog are still going strong so why is it considered a competition nearly 50 years on? 

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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

 so why is it considered a competition nearly 50 years on? 

there's still a competition?! ConfusedLOL I didn't know that (I doubt it though Tongue)
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Cactus Choir Cactus Choir wrote:

.....not the spotty green-haired herbert Johnny Rotten!
Never mind the bullocks, it's anarchy in the dairy farm... Who would've guessed the spotty green-haired herbert would end up selling Country Life butter to spread the cost of living, presumably because he kneaded the bread. It can't be good for his Public Image though. Tongue

Just a new true dinosaur. Big smile
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

 so why is it considered a competition nearly 50 years on? 

there's still a competition?! ConfusedLOL I didn't know that (I doubt it though Tongue)

According to RYM statistics, just about 6000 Punk releases in 2023, which is much more than Progressive Rock releases.
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Never mind the bullocks, it's anarchy in the dairy farm... 

I'm afraid, so it is  Embarrassed




Edited by David_D - December 12 2023 at 06:32
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

 so why is it considered a competition nearly 50 years on? 

there's still a competition?! ConfusedLOL I didn't know that (I doubt it though Tongue)

According to RYM statistics, just about 6000 Punk releases in 2023, which is much more than Progressive Rock releases.




Who says it's a competition? 
Who cares about RYM statistics?! How is this relevant, in a positive way? Confused
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^ I misunderstood you.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


^ I misunderstood you.

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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

 so why is it considered a competition nearly 50 years on? 

there's still a competition?! ConfusedLOL I didn't know that (I doubt it though Tongue)


Maybe rivalry is a better word. Were there punks who hated prog? Definitely. Were there proggers who hated punk? Of course but i would say that was a minority when many music lovers actually loved or at least tolerated both. I think these divisions were gimmicks of the music industry for the most part. Really punk and prog satisfy two completely different musical needs much like broccoli and chocolate do for our appetites.


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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

 so why is it considered a competition nearly 50 years on? 

there's still a competition?! ConfusedLOL I didn't know that (I doubt it though Tongue)
Maybe rivalry is a better word. Were there punks who hated prog? Definitely. Were there proggers who hated punk? Of course but i would say that was a minority when many music lovers actually loved or at least tolerated both. I think these divisions were gimmicks of the music industry for the most part. Really punk and prog satisfy two completely different musical needs much like broccoli and chocolate do for our appetites.

Mass media is guilty to encourage such rivalries, maybe they would sell more magazines (in the past), get more views (remember MTV?), or get clicks these days.
 I remember an interview with Nirvana in which the reviewer was baiting Kurt and the guys to mock glam metal bands, which in the end they did. There was also the Kurt-Axl rivalry which MTV and the musical press encouraged for profit. 
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^ yes,  having immersed myself in contract law for the last several years, it has come to light that when you sign up for selling your art to one of the major industries (film, music etc) you are basically owned and serve as an actor on the stage for the global elite's agendas. Even though i love all these styles of music, it has also become apparent that such shifts in popular music trends are very much orchestrated for the effect of creating divisions in society and the world at large therefore anybody who falls into this trap is really just serving their masters behind the scenes. Sounds crazy but too many have left the various industries and explained these things in great detail. In the case of glam metal, some of those bands really were bad. There is a time and place where something needs to change and the 1991 timeline was one of those times. On the bright side with grunge came the all things alternative era as well as prog revival. As i see it grunge was the last hurrah for the traditional music industry before the decentralized platform changed it all forever. It will take a while but eventually a new more just and freer music industry will evolve into something that serves the artist and fans and not just the profits of the industry. In the meantime, indie music is king!

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